Let's talk deployment

[Slobber]

I'd like to apologize for what follows as it's long winded and rambles on, brushing up against some topics that deserve more attention from someone better at this game than I. It started off as a reply to this http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=28295 but got long enough I felt it needed it's own thread.

The deployment phase can be the most important phase of the game. Your deployment defines the first turn and echoes through the rest of the game. In order to make it easier to talk about lets break the deployment into three considerations; Frontage, Spacing, and Distance. Frontage being the linear frontage of your deployed forces, Spacing being the distance between your units, and Distance the distance between the deployed forces.
Controlling the Frontage is important as it limits where you can be charged and helps create space to control distance. The two ways I know of to control frontage are to run deep units and rack units behind other units.
Spacing has 3 elements to keep in mind; leadership bubbles, panic bubbles, and the actual space between units.
Controlling distance is possible by making “dead drops” deploying units that vanguard, or units that scout or ambush.
Depending on what kind of army you're fielding or fighting against these considerations will have varying import. For example large hordes will want to control frontage ensuring that the fighty parts are the ones that get into combat, while for an army like vampire counts keeping all the pieces in the bubble of leadership/casting range pushes spacing to the forefront. For us with units and characters that want to fight a weakened foe rather than standing toe toe and slugging it out distance is what allows us to pick our fights and control the flow of the engagement.
As some people have mentioned preset formations as an option, I think these work better for forces where Frontage and Spacing are more important than distance.

[nXken]

I'll be watching advice on this topic as I feel it is important and i lack skills in it

Please go over the unit types as well... For exemple, i have no clue what is meant with chaff...

[NonnoSte]

Chaff means litterally a worthless thing.
In the specific of warhammer is intended a disposable unit: a unit that can be sacrified with no remorse if the situation requires it.

I recently discovered that there's also a radar decoy that's called chaff, but I'm not that familiar with it.

[Mollesvinet]

To me, it is important that while it is okay to have some ideas about deployment before the game, then the real deployment should happen in response to your opponent and his list. This means for example, that some lists tend to come predetermined to "put forest in corner and castle" but then in the game a single character or comet of cassandora can suddenly mess up the plans.

An important tool in deployment is the eagles. I always start out with two eagles, out of harm but able to reach most of the battlefield. After that, I would put a wild rider unit on each flank, because due to vanguard they can re-position easily. If there are no wild riders in your list, then a couple of glade guard units works as well. The initial drops are mainly to lure out your opponents important drops, whereafter you can respond to them.

Now for the rest of deployment, it is important to have a plan depending on your opponent. If your opponent has a unit you will have difficulties beating at all, then you will want to deploy far away from that. If your enemy has a monster, then you will want your poison arrows close to it. If your enemy has a unit which requires ranks to break, then you will want your eternal guard close to it. You get the point. Scouting makes this easier, which is why i usually put hagbane on my scouts.

Make this plan in your head before you start deploying, and make sure you make it as a priority. For example, maybe you can afford for your war hawk riders to be less accurately deployed as they are fast, but in order to win the game you NEED to have your treeman close to his giant block. In this case you should obviously wait to deploy the treeman untill he already deployed his block.

Finally, remember to use the terrain to it's full effect. Impassable terrain and dangerous terrain can be used as funnels to control your opponents movement. Forests can be used for cover and so on. Hope that was useful!

[CauCaSus]

Going "you deploy this there so I deploy this here" is very reactionary and can lead to the units in your army not supporting each other properly. This is very apparent in armies like VC and OnG. Luckily our WE are very fast and manouverable and don't suffer that much.

It can be very useful to remember this against an opponent though.

Are there some units of yours that he doesn't want to face? Or units you can use as bait?

A large unit of elves on foot can provide an "easy target" for his cav. Knowing this you can place your GG in a way so that if he places his cav opposite them, he leaves them open to be shot by WW or counter-charged by WR.

Another thing is to deploy within or without shooting and charge ranges. With the old book I'd deploy my GG within 35" of the intended target.

If you play with open lists you can force his regen monsters to reconsider where to deploy by deploying your flaming archers early.

[Slobber]

I think what we're talking about is delaying our deployment until our opponent commits his forces. Allowing us to deploy in the most advantageous manner afterwards. For me there are three types of units I use to stall my commitment, chaff, units that vanguard, and units that have their placement dictated by outside forces (for example placing your treeman behind a hill vs a gunline)
Another thing we've mentioned is using bait to dictate how our opponent deploys. Lately I've been running a big block of archers with a couple of characters. When everything else in the list is worth 200 points or less 600 is a tempting target. Most don't consider that with the moonstone it's almost impossible to catch.

[NonnoSte]

I think CauCaSus touched the point I was looking for in the other discussion, in my batrep.

Armies like VC, O&G or even Ogre and Bretonnia have a predetermined deployment due to Ld issues or army-specific characteristics.
Nonetheless they are able to put that at advantage in the match.
You're not going towards the Infantry blocks with a Monster if a Terrorgheist is ready to jump over them and scream the hell out of your expensive single model.
Neither you're happy to go for that Svage Orcs block if the units of Night Goblin nearby are going to throw some Fanatics on your face.

The bait/countermeasure system looks effective, though.
Clearly the more units you have to lure your opponent, the better it is for your most effective troops. (I don't know if it's the correct grammar form in english. sorry if I'm mistaken)
This also forces you to deploy your baits with an eye on what will be the options for your countermeasures (i.e. deploying your big GG/EG block in a suboptimal position, but in a zone where WW will have an easy day). And obviously, you have to know with will be the reactions of your opponents to your bait troops.

[Slobber]

The bait/countermeasure system looks effective, though.
Clearly the more units you have to lure your opponent, the better it is for your most effective troops. (I don't know if it's the correct grammar form in english. sorry if I'm mistaken)
.

If it's not it's close enough.

If you're in a situation where you will have to commit early then I think the best you can do is focus on the other factors of spacing and facing. Make it as ugly as you can for your foe to get to you and do damage.

[Akorndr2]

how should a wood elf deploy im using lords and heros in a sisters bunker eternal guard with two units of glade guard to make up core (2400 pts swedish) with some scouts war dancers wild riders treeman and two eagles should I be looking at deploying on a flank or two flanks? or keep out of the.middle

[Slobber]

how should a wood elf deploy im using lords and heros in a sisters bunker eternal guard with two units of glade guard to make up core (2400 pts swedish) with some scouts war dancers wild riders treeman and two eagles should I be looking at deploying on a flank or two flanks? or keep out of the.middle

I'm not sure that there is an easy answer to this. "Carefully" or "It depends" come to mind. You want to deploy in a manner that forces your opponent to act in a manner that helps you. Any of the deployments you mention can work, but it really depends what you're up against. It sounds like you're running a list that has some decent close combat potential. So you'll want to place your army in a manner that forces combat with your combat troops and makes it harder to get your support troops.
With what you mentioned I'd probably look at a refused flank where you've got your lighter units(fast cav) on one side and the rest of your force on the other. You'll want to use the board edge to guard one flank your treeman for the other. Save your wild riders and or sisters to swing back around and engage from behind.

[nXken]

How do you counter such tactics when you recognize them?

Ambush on the "denied flank" with GR?

[Aezeal]

I usually deploy my WR way to the back next to/ behind the archers. I don't use them to charge wildly at the enemy and I don't use them to pin units (too expensive). Back they are saver (more chance of being out of range for magic and shooting and behind units they would get cover bonus on shootign too.
I mostly use them to charge closing enemies.. I do not engage the enemy ata first. I shoot down what needs to be shot down. Then I try to weaken the rest. And then I make a plan to deal with the units that seem to head towards my lines. The WR don't really need to be in front. They will probably have at least 1, maybe even 2-3 turns to position themselves and they are fast enough.
I don't often have enough melee to pin my opponents with other units but even so I usually try to flank the closest enemy so it has to choose between facing the WR or keep going for the archers (and get the WR in the side). I also deploy a small unit of WD near my archers just as a roadblock really. They can do some damage (more than an eagle against most units, and are not much more expensive), have the option to KB or 3++ or +1 attack, all good options (though I usually go for the 3++ if don't get overrun my archers can move: one unit to the left, one unit to the right so IF the enemy gets to charging them it'll be busy at least 2-3 turns with all the reforming and closing the distance again).

My deployment thus often looks a bit like in this thread: http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=28128

[CauCaSus]

how should a wood elf deploy im using lords and heros in a sisters bunker eternal guard with two units of glade guard to make up core (2400 pts swedish) with some scouts war dancers wild riders treeman and two eagles should I be looking at deploying on a flank or two flanks? or keep out of the.middle

TBH it depends on your opponent and what your own plan is with your units. Why have you taken each unit and what do you want to do with them?

[bjoernuhlig]

I eyed your post cause I have similiar thought on the matter for a while now.
But moreover I am thinking about writing a comprehensive "General Movement" article and I am looking for ideas. Reason I do this is because I am on the side of those who thinks WE are primarily a movement army rather than a primarily shooting army. And I have so many questions about that in every game I play that I just wish for some comprehensive overview about the topic of movement, but i havent found time to do it myself. We lack an article about all the specifics about the movement phase and what goes into it because its such a "general" area and its mostly about the BRB and its rules. Not about Woods so much.

It should cover
-how to possbily deploy, use scouts and vanguard for WE specifics
-moving (screening, fleeing, move-shooting to use distances (studderstepping with scouts etc), attacking if and when, ambushing, setting up traps, getting out of tricky situations, etc
-dangerous terrain (with the SotT Anraheirs Spell this is imo an important issue not just for the obvious poison wood on the table)
-tactics in general: there is a thread about "pushing us of the table" which alreay goes into some detail about a tactic WE fares bad against. This section should also cover facing cannon builds, facing Heavy Armor builds, builds that outshoot us, mirror mathups, etc. Focus here is again "movement" as that is a´the decisive factor in winning and loosing.
-tactics for units, using them how and move how (stressing primarily thos units that focus on the movement topic i.e. eagles. much like this thread: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=33028.

alas, when I find time to do this... I need a job where I sit alone in an office...

[Phil Rossiter]

My first game in 8th edition with this army surprised me re it's ability to redeploy. The point about controlling the distance between armies is key here because that buys you time to shuffle your units if necessary.

My last game (Dawn Attack) saw my Wild Riders stuck out on a flank facing a wall of shooting. I should have moved them along my baseline to counter my opponent's central breakthrough in the middle turns but didn't, one reason I lost. Basically because I wasn't used to hard-hitting cavalry being so flexible.

[Wrath_of_the_Wildwood]

Interesting thread
@mollesvinet I find your flank deployment with WR interesting because I generally like to deploy them towards the middle like in Azeals picture because vanguard allows you to then control whatever flank you wish. Obviously opponent dependent. I will usually only go straight to a flank if my opponent puts something juicy out there that I want to take off

[Mollesvinet]

@Wrath_of_the_Wildwood

The idea of my initial deployment is to keep the enemy guessing. I always run at least two units of wild riders, to get one on each flank. With two eagles, two units of glade guard and two units of wild riders you end up with a symmetrical drop and your enemy can only guess where your main forces will end up. Since wild riders and eagles are highly mobile, you can deploy the rest of the army in the best possible response to your enemy. As swordmaster pointed out, it's not just a matter of "if A then B", but it means that you can field the synergetic pieces of your army together but also in the optimal position to counter your enemy.

I find that wild riders on the flanks maximizes my chances of getting them behind enemy lines or whatever position i need them in the most. If one flank is abandened by the enemy, then those wildriders can always vanguard towards the center and quickly close the distance in any case.

[NonnoSte]

Mollesvinet, aren't you having trouble focusing your fire with Glade Guards spread out on the battlefield?
If I had 2-4 units of 10 TFA Glade Guards I'd like to have them somewhat close to each other to be able to put a good pressure on my targets of choice.

I'm trying to have a shooty flank and a fast moving one lately (when I'm not lumbering around with fatty trees). It's working now, because my opponents tend to concentrate on the shooty flank, leaving me room to move my other troops and delete one incoming unit after the other.

[Phil Rossiter]

I suppose a lot of deployment is about committing as little as possible, while forcing your opponent to commit. So you keep 2 or more rough patterns of units possible. You might still need certain units working with certain other units but by deploying efficiently you can keep two ways of doing this open until the last minute.

I think Nonno Ste's got a point about firebases but there are games (O&G?) where spreading your archers makes sense because your opponent is posing threats from several directions that need shooting.

[Mollesvinet]

Hi guys

My glade guard "always" have trueshot arrows, this way it doesn't matter a lot if the two units are on the flanks to begin.

If I go for flank denial, then the rest of my glade guard will go close to one of the initial one so only 1 unit will be away from the concentrated fire zone. There tend to always be a nice target anyway, be it a small skirmishing unit or a lone character.

Furthermore I tend to have waywatchers and hagbane scouts, so I can certainly concentrate fire even with the initial deployment of 2 glade guard units.

EDIT: I can draw it up on a diagram tomorrow to make it more clear