To Wound & To Hit Modifiers

[Woollymammoth]

according to page 40:

SHOOTING MODIFIERS
Raw skill is not the only factor to determine the difficulty of a shot. Many battlefield conditions can alter the accuracy of missile fire, and we represent these with a series of shooting modifiers. Shooting modifiers are applied to the dice rolls before they are compared to the score needed to hit, making the shot more difficult, and therefore less likely to succeed.

Continuing the earlier example, if the five Empire archers had a -1 modifier applied to their shooting attack, all of the dice would count as rolling one point lower than they actually did. As a result, those dice would need to score a point higher, and instead of needing 4s to hit, they would now need 5s. Accordingly, only one archer would have hit
-
There is nothing in the To wound section, so I assume it is the same, a modifier to the dice roll.

Lets say were shooting at a T4 unit, lets say Black Orcs. We know that S3 (Asrai Longbow) versus T4 = 5+ To Wound, so any 5 or 6 on the dice will wound. If the shot was made using Starfire Shafts, then we would get +1 To Wound. That means any 4 that was rolled becomes a 5, and therefore wounds, simplified as 4+ To Wound.

Here is the tricky part - Lets say a unit of GG were firing at a Hellcannon, Strength 6. S3 Asrai Longbows versus T6 is a 6+ To Wound, however, if you are using Starfire Shafts, your 5s become 6s and therefore you have a 5+ To Wound. This means that Starfire/Moonfire essentially negate the toughness of what you're shooting at, in that you can never have worse than a 5+ To Wound with them (against the correct army, which can never be OK or TK)

In addition to the arrows, Flaming Sword of Rhuin can be cast on a unit to give them +1 To Wound.

[hutobega]

it is literally a +1 to wound so any 6+ even if it has toughens eleventy billion...now becomes a 5+ that's why +1 to wound is better than +1 strength! In some situations!
:EDIT: Does flaming sword work with star/moon fire arrows? I am not sure.

[Woollymammoth]

That's an interesting point, as you'd assume that it would work like To Hit modifiers which stack, but this is specifically stated on pg40:
The shooting modifiers are cumulative (except when noted otherwise), and are as follows:
(list of negative To Hit modifiers)

the FAQ/Errata states in regards to special Rules:
However, unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit from having the same special rule multiple times.

This means that a Treeman cannon game additional Scaly Skin from Glittering Robe, as that would be two instances of Scaly Skin. However, +1 To Wound is not a "Special Rule". If you look at pages 11 & 66, you can see there are three kinds of rules: Normal, Advanced & Special. +1 To Hit or To Wound would apply to one model or one unit, so that would make it an Advanced Rule, but it is not a Special Rule. Special Rules always have a title. For this reason, I would say that multiple instances of +To Hit or +To Wound stack, though this is a gray area and might be overruled.

[hutobega]

it's situational anyways as you have to cast a spell.. and look at lore of metal with our -3 modifier arrows...some people think it gives you an extra armor pierce no? or did we say that was wrong? SO MANY RULES AHHHHH lol

[Woollymammoth]

If you give AP to Arcane Bodkins, then they do -4 to armor, as they do -3 armor without the use of the AP rule.

[Slobber]

If you give AP to Arcane Bodkins, then they do -4 to armor, as they do -3 armor without the use of the AP rule.

Except Ap doesn't stack it's clearly a special rule not a modifier to armor save like plague of rust. I'd make the argument that like to hit modifiers, all modifiers are cumulative. For example you would never say oh your miasma can't effect my Waywatchers as they already have hand of glory. This interpretation would cover adjustments to wound.

[skilgannon82]

wounds caused by arcane bodkins have a -3 armour saving throw modifier, so it doesnt have the ap rule already for it to stack

[hutobega]

Yes for the arcane bodkins but what about the +1 to hit or wound modifiers? can they stack? Like moonfire arrows and flaming sword? thats the real question here. hmmmm such a great idea to try haha (oh hey nice hell cannon) my strength 3 wounds you on 4s...SUCK IT! lol

[Woollymammoth]

My ruling is that minus or plus to hit or to wound is not a "Named Special Rule", and therefore these is no conflict with stacking. Since negative modifiers ToHit stack, we would assume positive modifiers ToHit would also stack. There is no definition as to whether or not ToWound modifiers work differently than ToHit and therefore I'd safely say that they work in the same way. Competitively, the ToHit bonus from Starfire Shafts is unreliable, seeing as how you don't know what your opponent will be, and even so a dragonhelm/DB gem will be annoying in both magic and shooting.

I'm not a veteran by any means so if there is something I'm missing, please let me know

[Slobber]

wounds caused by arcane bodkins have a -3 armour saving throw modifier, so it doesnt have the ap rule already for it to stack

You sir are correct, enchanted blades or any other rule granting AP would stack here. I hadn't noticed that the bodkins have a different wording.

Yes for the arcane bodkins but what about the +1 to hit or wound modifiers? can they stack? Like moonfire arrows and flaming sword? thats the real question here. hmmmm such a great idea to try haha (oh hey nice hell cannon) my strength 3 wounds you on 4s...SUCK IT! lol

I don't see how anyone could think they wouldn't stack. Modifiers are clearly additive.

[astorre]

So is it pointless to cast Midnight Wind on a unit you already cast Iceshard on? As they'll never roll a six to hit?
If you cast Iceshard on a unit with poison is it impossible to roll a poison wound?

[Gwill_of_the_Woods]

So is it pointless to cast Midnight Wind on a unit you already cast Iceshard on? As they'll never roll a six to hit?
If you cast Iceshard on a unit with poison is it impossible to roll a poison wound?

Yup if the modified BS means you'll need 7's or 8's etc, it means you have to roll a 6 followed by a 4+ I think so poisoned doesn't count.

Luckily we have AMAZING BS across the board!

[Glory_of_the_Forest]

My bad. You weren't talking bout bows.

[Bogi]

wounds caused by arcane bodkins have a -3 armour saving throw modifier, so it doesnt have the ap rule already for it to stack

You sir are correct, enchanted blades or any other rule granting AP would stack here. I hadn't noticed that the bodkins have a different wording.

Yes for the arcane bodkins but what about the +1 to hit or wound modifiers? can they stack? Like moonfire arrows and flaming sword? thats the real question here. hmmmm such a great idea to try haha (oh hey nice hell cannon) my strength 3 wounds you on 4s...SUCK IT! lol

I don't see how anyone could think they wouldn't stack. Modifiers are clearly additive.

Its that old saying. You learn something every day and you still die stupid. Still not sure if they are worth it but that is pretty cool. Good for ETC restrictions with a metal mage. Really sad the razor banner does not work on ranger weapons. I still think the ruling of it is wrong though.

Yes the modifiers from flaming sword stack. It was a great spell when it allowed auto wounding with high enough strenght.

[Woollymammoth]

Errata says if you need more than 6 to hit the poison is lost.

[NonnoSte]

So is it pointless to cast Midnight Wind on a unit you already cast Iceshard on? As they'll never roll a six to hit?
If you cast Iceshard on a unit with poison is it impossible to roll a poison wound?

Actually Iceshard implies that if you need - let's say - a 4+ to hit, that's turned in a 5+, but a natural 6 on the die is still poisoning as well to be re-rolled if combined with Midnight Wind.
The point you seek is where you need a 6+ to hit, that's turned in a 7+ (4+ on any 6). This case doesn't allow any poisoning hit and does not require to re-roll 6s to hit since you're not hitting on 6+.

[Aezeal]

skilgannon82 wrote:
wounds caused by arcane bodkins have a -3 armour saving throw modifier, so it doesnt have the ap rule already for it to stack


You sir are correct, enchanted blades or any other rule granting AP would stack here. I hadn't noticed that the bodkins have a different wording.

I'm not saying that is INCORRECT. BUT if that where so our asrai longbows would already give the AP so then it would ALWAYS be -4 AS, andyour argmument for this seems valid. Interesting point though.. how is this generally played.

[Typo]

Read the armory section again, the stats for the longbow are replaced by those of the arrow you upgrade the unit with. Note that all other arrows have the AP rule, and bodkins do not.

[Aezeal]

thx for that