Enchanted Arrows may be used more than once

[Sidewinder]

I am posting my argument that the hagbane Tips, as well as the other enchanted arrows listed on page 37, may be used in more than one unit because the question has been raised at least twice in different non-related topics.

- Arcane Bodkins, Hagbane Tips, et al are listed under "The Armoury of Torgovann" on page 37 not in the "Heirlooms of Athel Loren" section.
-- there is a big difference between an armoury and heirlooms
our armory listing is like that of the Space Marines "Wargear" and "Armoury" sections. All units that can have specific wargear can have them at the same time.
--- storm bolters are listed in the Codex Dark Angel's "Armoury of the Rock" section
---- A Dark Angels command squad, Company Veterans Squad, Deathwing Terminator Squad, and a few other units can all be equipped with storm bolters at the same time
---- Foe-Smiter is listed in the "Dark Angels Chapter Relics" section. Only one model can have the Foe-Smiter.
- Tomb Kings' Arrows of Asaph are carried by more than one unit, they are blessed by Asaph, therefor, they are magical items but they are exempt from the Unique rule and may have more than one arrow that is blessed by Asaph.

We are limited to the magic items listed on pages 173-177 in the BRB and pages 62-63 to just one of them per army, not five, not ten, not thirty, not seventy-five, just one. It is either one or none. We can't have five Banners of the Eternal flame in one unit. But, we can have as many enchanted arrows that we can purchase because of the exception made by the Unique rule on page 172 of the BRB. "...you can only have one ...unless otherwise stated in the magic item's rules." Unfortunately, most people interpret this to mean that the rule has to specifically spell it out rather than realizing that as soon as a single unit that consists of more than one model has the option to purchase enchanted arrows for all models in that unit then obviously that item is exempt to the "only one" part of the rule and therefor is not limited.

- The enchanted arrows on page 37 are exempt from the Unique rule because we can purchase more than one. We can have as many of them in as many units that we want as long as we have the points to purchase them.
Enchanted arrows are simply purchasable upgrades.

[Aben Zin]

I don't understand how this is even an issue. The limit of one enchanted item is on Magic Items- ie. what you buy with a character's magic item allowance. How could it possibly apply to unit upgrades?

[Deadclown]

I don't understand how this is even an issue. The limit of one enchanted item is on Magic Items- ie. what you buy with a character's magic item allowance. How could it possibly apply to unit upgrades?

Some people have made it a issue by saying that well because they are called enchanted arrows they are stated to be enchanted items and the rule of doesn't stop you from taking a second enchanted item have made them a enchanted item which means the rules for magic items apply to the unit which means 1 arrow type per charcter or unit :P

It has been brought up on other websites with alot of people argueing along those lines:)

[Balakul]

if I read corectly, issue is: magic arows that can be used by core units of wood elves, are interpepretated as magic items from hero magic gear section? O.o That is kind a redicolus.

[Deadclown]

if I read corectly, issue is: magic arows that can be used by core units of wood elves, are interpepretated as magic items from hero magic gear section? O.o That is kind a redicolus.

The problem is in the wording they are stated as enchanted items that do not stop you from having a second enchanted item. Which does some what link them with magic items and a enchanted item with that particular wording and it is one of the things needing a FAQ.

Exact quote

" These are enchanted items, but do not prevent a model from having a second enchanted item"

However i will say this there are 2 different arguments

Rule's as written based on the above quote stating they are Enchanted items bound by the rules as enchanted items and bound by the rules of enchanted items.

and

Rules as Intended which is based on a certain amount of precedent which state that the items as listed as unit or character upgrades are not in the magic item section and are there fore standard equipment for a unit.
The precedent is based off the WOC enscrolled weapon rules which is viewed as better written
and the skaven Armory section which has some items both in it and in magic item section and listed as unit upgrades for some units and characters. which GW have stated if it is a unit upgrade it does not count as a magic item nor prevent you from taking it with other characters from armory and you pay the point cost for armory if unit/character upgrade or magic item costing if not a unit/character upgrade if paid for from magic item section no other character can take a second version of it but does not prevent units and character from taking it a second or third if a unit upgrade. Example warlock argumented weapons and warpstone throwing weapons:P

Anyway but yeah i tend to favour the rule's as intended POV so do ETC and various comping and tournies as well. But some players do dispute it but yeah.

[Masternecrotect]

Yea they are under the armory I'd love to take more than one set but the fact that our book calls them enchanted items is what hoses us. The fact that they are unit upgrades is what lets every model in the unit have them but not multiple units. All I'm saying is I'd get you opponents permission or the t.o.'s permission before springing that on some one. Because we are limited to one of any magic item.

[Billthesurly]

Sounds like some people want to have their cake and eat it too. An "enchanted item" is limit one. Period. Yet here we clearly have a situation in which I can buy 100 of them if I have a unit of 100 Glade Guards. Nay, they don't shoot just one arrow per game they shoot volleys of 100 at a time! (As opposed to a Hail of Doom which is one shot only.) So when you buy a unit of 100 GG some type of enchanted arrow you actually buy them at least 600 of the things. So now if I split my unit of 100 into 10 units of 10 those 600 arrows are no longer available? Absurd.

This is so clearly a universal unit/character up-grade as to render any argument to the contrary a silly thing.

[dg1]

Army Builder, at least for now, says only one unit can have any specific type of enchanted arrows. However, ETC and a lot of TOs agree that the enchanted arrows are unit upgrades and governed by the army list rules in the Wood Elf army book. In that sense, army builder is wrong. The key is what the army list says about what units can take or are equipped with. When the army book allows certain units (and certain character models) to buy the same types of enchanted arrows as upgrades for all the models in the unit, it renders the "unique" rule on page 500 in the BRB invalid. You have a number of examples of being able to take multiple units or repeat magic items like that when they are part of a unit or a unit upgrade (Skaven book, Daemons book,etc.). The unique rule was intended for common magic items in either the army book or BRB that are purchased with either a character or on certain command models (standard bearer or champion). In the context of magic items on every model within a unit, those are treated separately. The army list in the Wood Elf book would have to specifically say in the army list section only one unit or model can take any specific type of enchanted arrow, sort of like the new book says only one Glade Guard unit can take a magic standard, for the unique rule to apply in this case.

[Weirwood]

Page 37 of the AB
- "THE ARMOURY OF TORGOVANN

In this section, you will find the descriptions and rules for a number of weapons and upgrades that are available to the units and characters of the Wood Elf army."

Nothing about magic; Definitely doesn't sound like page 62

- "Heirlooms of the Athel Loren

On the following pages are magic items available to Wood Elf armies....."

On page 37 under enchanted arrows it does say that they count as enchanted items, "but do not prevent a model from having a second enchanted item." Seems rather straight forward to me.

[Masternecrotect]

[quote="Weirwood"]Page 37 of the AB
- "THE ARMOURY OF TORGOVANN

In this section, you will find the descriptions and rules for a number of weapons and upgrades that are available to the units and characters of the Wood Elf army."

Nothing about magic; Definitely doesn't sound like page 62

- "Heirlooms of the Athel Loren

On the following pages are magic items available to Wood Elf armies....."

On page 37 under enchanted arrows it does say that they count as enchanted items, "but do not prevent a model from having a second enchanted item." Seems rather

part of the armory that says they are enchanted items and it says that it doesn't stop you from taking a second item referring to magic items. Like I said it is unclear etc may allow we don't know til they release it til then check.

[Masternecrotect]

Another point which led me to believe the arrows were one upgrade per unit is the Swiss comp that is out already doesn't knock you for multiple units with the same arrow just the amount of models. Swiss comp would have knocked the hell out of poison arrows if you were allowed to take them on multiple units.

[Balakul]

This is how I interpretate rulling in the book:

in the army composition part of book, you have the important part of rulling, whic says for units that can take those enchanted arrows: "The ENTIRE unit may take ONE of the following types of enchanted arrows" (from page 88 onward)
so you can't have more than one enchanted type of arrow in your unit, cuz you may take ONE and ONE arrow only. Yes you can have more enchanted items, but not more than one type of enchanted ARROWS. Arrow is an item, but not every item is arrow.

Second, ENTIRE unit, states that all its mabers replace their arrows with selected enchanted arrows. So 10 glade guards, replace their 10 shooting attacks with 10 enchanted shooting atacks. But they may use only those, since in armory section of book states: "enchanted arrow replace profile of the Asrai longbow..." (page 37)

Back to page 37: "these are enchanted items, but do not prevent a model to have secon enchanted item" Lords, Heroes etc. may take enchanted arrows form armory as they would any other item, but it doesent count towards limit number of enchanted items he can wear. So for instance Lord is alowed to use enchanted magic item from armory section instead of regular attacks, plus he can add another enchanted item from our army book, or from basic warhammer rule book. Page 88 "may take magic items up to total of 100" - even the "Bow of loren" on page 62 has been re-writen due to this, it clearly states it can not shoot enchanted arrows. (before even going there, it counts asasrai longbow, and enchanted arrow would replace all its rulling)

In general I don't see any problem with understanding this book: all models in unit must take same enchanted arrows. Lord can have additional enchanted item. You can have as many units with as many models equiped all with same enchanted arrow. You trying me to explain diferent, you'll have to do really good job for me not to call you cheeser.

[Balakul]

Oh there is one thing. Statemen on 37 that arrows are enchanted items. statement: BRB page 500, enchanted item is subcategory of magic item:. So I belive it counts toward the maximum points magic item alowance per hero. example : Lord can have enchanted arrows for 5pts and additional items for 95pts since his max is 100.

[Balakul]

Unique: BRB 500, "unless otherwise stated in the magic item's rules." --> AB the entire unit may take one of the following types of enchanted arrowS. = all models obviously just got a single enchanted item. So that meas it is not unique.

[hutobega]

There is a huge thread about this. I don't think we need more. It's equipment end of story stop reading too hard into it. thank games workshop for throwing the word Enchanted into the description UGH.

[Boskie43]

There is a huge thread about this. I don't think we need more. It's equipment end of story stop reading too hard into it. thank games workshop for throwing the word Enchanted into the description UGH.

Hardly think it's end of story just because you say so. We have rules. Army books allow exceptions to the main rule book. We have a clearly laid out exception for use inside a unit but not outside. You know what a shield is? Nope, check main rule book. You know what an enchanted item is? Nope, check main rule book. Rulings for both of those. I view that as End of discussion. But rather than casually saying it's done, id still rather read other thoughts to potential ENLIGHTEN me with an actual rule (and not feelings/discussion of intent) in the pool of enlightenment.

I've already laid out my entire reasoning in the other thread, so no reason to put it all down yet again.
Still in the camp that it's one use per arrow type. And I've honestly had no issues beating people using no duplicates of a clearly labeled enchanted item.

[InstantKarma]

Guess I'll need to remember when I run my Tau in 40k that I can only take 1 pair of Plasma Rifles on my Battlesuits

I agree that poor wording is the problem here. Apparently, in order to give the arrows the full effect of counting as 'magical weapons', they had to be listed as some strange exception to the normal Enchanted Items.

I'd point out that unlike normal magic items, even those given to regiments, the Arrows are listed as a Unit Upgrade, similar to a musician or standard bearer. We clearly are not limiting an entire army to only taking one unit with FC, so why would this logic be extended to the arrows?

Oh there is one thing. Statemen on 37 that arrows are enchanted items. statement: BRB page 500, enchanted item is subcategory of magic item:. So I belive it counts toward the maximum points magic item alowance per hero. example : Lord can have enchanted arrows for 5pts and additional items for 95pts since his max is 100.

For further evidence that the arrows are not to be treated following the normal magic items restrictions, if you look at the Glade Lord/Captain they make also take an Arrow Upgrade, but not only does this not interfere with their taking another different Enchanted Item, it also clearly does not come out of their normal Magic Item allowance. If these arrows were meant to be restrcited like any other enchanted item, then for characters purchasing them, wouldn't it make sense to charge them for that item out of their normal Magic Item allowance? It is listed as a seperate upgrade in addition to their 100 pts of Magic Items.

I am more convinced that the reasoning behind this is a literalist reading of the rules regarding the arrows, in order to limit their applicability to WE players, by other players who clearly fear the possibility of 30 Deepwood Scouts with Hagbane Arrows

[RonRJW]

Yea they are under the armory I'd love to take more than one set but the fact that our book calls them enchanted items is what hoses us. The fact that they are unit upgrades is what lets every model in the unit have them but not multiple units. All I'm saying is I'd get you opponents permission or the t.o.'s permission before springing that on some one. Because we are limited to one of any magic item.

Where in the book does it say the arrows are "magic items"? It doesn't as far as I can see, but I do see them listed in our armory.

I do see that enchanted items are a category of "magic items". Why cant these "enchanted arrows"(enchanted items) be in our armory, which is the case, but not considered "magic items"(not labeled as such), thus not subject to rules for "magic items", or they would be under the heading for "magic items" in our AB?

[Balakul]

Where in the book does it say the arrows are "magic items"? It doesn't as far as I can see, but I do see them listed in our armory.

Army book W.E. page 37 that arrows are enchanted items.
BRB page 500, enchanted item is subcategory of magic item

[Masternecrotect]

Ok the T.O. of the mid Atlantic masters circuit in the U.S. where I live game me a ruling yesterday that wood elves can take the same arrow more than once l. So I withdrawal my argument until such time gw puts out a different ruling if they do

[Boskie43]

Ok the T.O. of the mid Atlantic masters circuit in the U.S. where I live game me a ruling yesterday that wood elves can take the same arrow more than once l. So I withdrawal my argument until such time gw puts out a different ruling if they do

And buckeye battles - largest non-adepticon Midwest tournament, has ruled only one of each arrow type. So the arguments are still acceptable

[Balakul]

Ok the T.O. of the mid Atlantic masters circuit in the U.S. where I live game me a ruling yesterday that wood elves can take the same arrow more than once l. So I withdrawal my argument until such time gw puts out a different ruling if they do

And buckeye battles - largest non-adepticon Midwest tournament, has ruled only one of each arrow type. So the arguments are still acceptable

This is kind a silly. Is not like they wrote rules aj? ETC also restricts many things, and it is kind a big deal, but no one is obligated to go after those restrictions uless you're trying to compete on it. They always restrict spaming, that and such, but GW has never put those restrictions in to any book.

[Coyle_Ravane]

Unique: BRB 500, "unless otherwise stated in the magic item's rules." --> AB the entire unit may take one of the following types of enchanted arrowS. = all models obviously just got a single enchanted item. So that meas it is not unique.

This. The items rules allow it to be taken by a whole unit. It is not 1 item that effects the whole unit, each model has the item. That is more than 1. Therefore the items rules DO "state otherwise" for the purpose of the unique rule.

[valmir]

The ab specifies that they are enchanted items. It doesn't say "counts as magical attacks" or something similar. It is very specifically allotted to a very specific subset of magical item. It must, therefore, abide by any and all rules for magical items for which there is no specific exception.

And I'm sorry, but "it's listed in our armoury, not in our magic items section" is in no way an exception.

I don't think we have enough information to do RAI on this one. RAW, though, it's very clear that you can only take one. Not logical, perhaps, but clear, on a rules sense.

All of the arguments I have read in favour of multiple units with the same arrows are either using RAI opinion to tenuously counter RAW fact (eg, the one about where in the book the listing is), or simply responding to the fluffy inconsistency of it being fine to have one unit of 20 with hag banes, but not 2 units of 10.

I hasten to add, this is not how I want it to work, and I'm hoping for an errata that says we can have multiples. But as it stands, this is not an ambiguous rule, just a counter-intuitive one.

[Coyle_Ravane]

The ab specifies that they are enchanted items. It doesn't say "counts as magical attacks" or something similar. It is very specifically allotted to a very specific subset of magical item. It must, therefore, abide by any and all rules for magical items for which there is no specific exception.

And I'm sorry, but "it's listed in our armoury, not in our magic items section" is in no way an exception.

I don't think we have enough information to do RAI on this one. RAW, though, it's very clear that you can only take one. Not logical, perhaps, but clear, on a rules sense.

Actually by RAW it is very clear that you can take them on multiple units.

The rules for the item allow it to be taken on every model in a unit, meaning it has been taken more than once, thus meeting the criteria (set under "Unique" in the brb) of the items rule stating it can be taken more than once.

All of the arguments I have read in favour of multiple units with the same arrows are either using RAI opinion to tenuously counter RAW fact (eg, the one about where in the book the listing is), or simply responding to the fluffy inconsistency of it being fine to have one unit of 20 with hag banes, but not 2 units of 10.

Then you haven't read the post before yours by myself, or the one earlier in this thread by another poster. Both point out that it is not a "fluffy inconsistency" but rather a fact which meets the wording of the written rules.

The brb says a magic item can only be taken once unless otherwise stated. It does not say that an item which can be taken multiple times must only be taken inside one unit.