High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
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- Tethlis
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High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
I saw Phill Kelly speak a bit about the new High Elves, and chatted with him a bit afterwards. He couldn't give me any information about the future of the Cult of Slaanesh, but I learned a lot about the new High Elves. Rumors have been floating around on Warseer and Asur.org for a while, but I hadn't seen the following posted anywhere. Check these out:
-All High Elves are striking first, always, even with Great Weapons, even if charged in the flank.
-High Elves will get 6 Special slots, 4 Rare slots at 2000+ points to represent their elite status.
-Three Dragon types, and a Mage capable of riding the dragon, which is old news.What's new, however, is this Mage uses Lore of Fire, and can swap the default spell for Flaming Sword of Rhuin to make him effective in close combat.
-Phoenix Guard still cause fear and have a halberd, but also get a 4+ ward save.
-Korhil and Caradryan really enhance the effectiveness of their respective units (White Lion and Phoenix Guard).
-The new Tiranoc Chariot is the most beautiful model I have ever seen from Games Workshop. Period.
-All High Elves are striking first, always, even with Great Weapons, even if charged in the flank.
-High Elves will get 6 Special slots, 4 Rare slots at 2000+ points to represent their elite status.
-Three Dragon types, and a Mage capable of riding the dragon, which is old news.What's new, however, is this Mage uses Lore of Fire, and can swap the default spell for Flaming Sword of Rhuin to make him effective in close combat.
-Phoenix Guard still cause fear and have a halberd, but also get a 4+ ward save.
-Korhil and Caradryan really enhance the effectiveness of their respective units (White Lion and Phoenix Guard).
-The new Tiranoc Chariot is the most beautiful model I have ever seen from Games Workshop. Period.
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
I'm a bit stunned. It sounds like we may have a new winner for most broken list. It seems that they noticed HE were crap and took them in the complete other direction.
The key to eating a black and white cookie is that you wanna get some black and some white in each bite. Nothing mixes better than vanilla and chocolate. And yet still somehow racial harmony eludes us. If people would only look to the cookie, all our problems would be solved.
Look to the Cookie!
Look to the Cookie!
- Tethlis
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
For Wood Elf players, check out the tactics thread I posted in general discussion. I think High Elves are replacing Brettonia and Dwarves as our nastiest opponent.
I think that High Elves will have a lot of variable success. They'll dominate some opponents, and get massacred by others. They will have extremely few troops, so gunlines and Hordes can still cause a lot of problems. It sounds like Games Workshop is really perfecting the idea of the elite, expensive, fragile regiment. They were very poor before simply because they were fragile and could be easily charged, but by always striking first they suddenly become worth their points. High Elves will still be vulnerable to shooting.
I think it's time to add a few more Glade Guard to my 2000 point list...
I think that High Elves will have a lot of variable success. They'll dominate some opponents, and get massacred by others. They will have extremely few troops, so gunlines and Hordes can still cause a lot of problems. It sounds like Games Workshop is really perfecting the idea of the elite, expensive, fragile regiment. They were very poor before simply because they were fragile and could be easily charged, but by always striking first they suddenly become worth their points. High Elves will still be vulnerable to shooting.
I think it's time to add a few more Glade Guard to my 2000 point list...
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
Everything there is old news, apart for the confirmation of Strike First working to the flanks. That is a very bad call by GW, very unfluffy, and very unbalanced.
The current High Elves will strike before any other troop type apart from other Elves thanks to their initiative, and should almost always get the charge thanks to their movement. With Elf vs Elf, why are High Elves so incredibly much faster than our Wardancers? If a troupe of Wardancers spring a surprise attack into a Spearmen flank, literally jumping out of the woods, how can the Spearmen see the attack, turn their spears, and attack before the dancers? It's just unreal. And imbalanced.
~ Nag
The current High Elves will strike before any other troop type apart from other Elves thanks to their initiative, and should almost always get the charge thanks to their movement. With Elf vs Elf, why are High Elves so incredibly much faster than our Wardancers? If a troupe of Wardancers spring a surprise attack into a Spearmen flank, literally jumping out of the woods, how can the Spearmen see the attack, turn their spears, and attack before the dancers? It's just unreal. And imbalanced.
~ Nag
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
I agree, but at least those Spearmen can't use all their attacks against the flank charge.
I noticed that Asur.org was updated with some of the rumors, but not all of them. They still have only 2 rare slots being allowed instead of 4, and made no mention of the focus of the Dragon mage on Lore of Fire. Still, I'm simply a lowly Asrai. I leave it to other minds to sort out the High Elf business .
Still, I think it would have been much smarter to have High Elves strike in initiative order instead of First. It still gives Asur the edge against most opponents, except for very fast and lethal opponents like Wardancers, Witch Elves, or enemy characters who have the agility to beat a rank-and-file spear elf. It would actually make the Initiative value useful in Warhammer Fantasy, instead of a fairly useless statistic.
I noticed that Asur.org was updated with some of the rumors, but not all of them. They still have only 2 rare slots being allowed instead of 4, and made no mention of the focus of the Dragon mage on Lore of Fire. Still, I'm simply a lowly Asrai. I leave it to other minds to sort out the High Elf business .
Still, I think it would have been much smarter to have High Elves strike in initiative order instead of First. It still gives Asur the edge against most opponents, except for very fast and lethal opponents like Wardancers, Witch Elves, or enemy characters who have the agility to beat a rank-and-file spear elf. It would actually make the Initiative value useful in Warhammer Fantasy, instead of a fairly useless statistic.
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
I must confess, I was ok with the strike first rule when I thought it would only be to the front. I mean, that makes SENSE and is very cool.
I am not 100% happy with this now. But ah well, HoDA will sort out those Swordmasters!
I am not 100% happy with this now. But ah well, HoDA will sort out those Swordmasters!
Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
When our book is re-made, we'll probably get better stuff too. I won't complain, we already have quite some fluffy special rules, but this is a bit over the top. Altough I like the idea of seeing all armies getting more different, so you have the idea you play a different army, instead of just different models.
Can't wait to see what they give us!
And can't wait till I see the chariot. It sounds great!
Can't wait to see what they give us!
And can't wait till I see the chariot. It sounds great!
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
It appears as GW is making each new army more and more powerful by coming up with new ways to break the system. High Elves may be overpowered now, but when the NE Vampires come, they'll be easilly cut to pieces. And when the next army comes (a very interesting one, if I may add ) it will blow everything apart. Thwn comes the Dark Elves, probably with some all-mighty army-wide rule that will cut through any opposition like warm butter... I fear things will go downhill from here...Coën wrote:When our book is re-made, we'll probably get better stuff too. I won't complain, we already have quite some fluffy special rules, but this is a bit over the top.
Can't wait to see what they give us!
This? http://www.asur.org.uk/ulthuan/viewtopi ... 371#483371And can't wait till I see the chariot. It sounds great!
Or this? http://s14.photobucket.com/albums/a328/ ... ariot2.jpg
~ Nag
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
I'm not too concerned about the Asur being powerful. Like I've mentioned, every army has good matchups and bad matchups. There's still a lot out there that can badly hurt High Elves. Dwarves and Brettonians come to mind immediately: Dwarves never get to strike first anyway, so this is nothing new for them, and Brettonians have the armor to survive and the mobility to focus on weak units. Any army with light armor and few troops (Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Beastmen, Ogres) will suffer more than others.
Besides, we may still see new features. It makes sense that we would only hear about the powerful aspects of High Elves, and hear nothing about the drawbacks. Point cost could be huge, Always Strike First regardless of flank may be a work-in-progress. We'll see.
Besides, we may still see new features. It makes sense that we would only hear about the powerful aspects of High Elves, and hear nothing about the drawbacks. Point cost could be huge, Always Strike First regardless of flank may be a work-in-progress. We'll see.
Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
Thanks for the pics Nag (didn't see the second one before). Probably because WarSeer isn't working for me for the past week(s)..
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
Warseer has a bad server, and is famed for making up their own rumours. Those pics are from the Sticky in the Asur.org.uk Warhammer forum.
~ Nag
~ Nag
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
It seems a bit like GW are trying to give each army more flashy powerful special rules than its predecessor (sp?) as to make players want to change army and buy new models...
Tethlis, you're very right on the match-up thing. I didn't really think of it that way. It seems bad news to me though, as many of my regular opponents play HE already, and as you stated, it will be a bad match-up for us.
thanks for sharing, btw
Tethlis, you're very right on the match-up thing. I didn't really think of it that way. It seems bad news to me though, as many of my regular opponents play HE already, and as you stated, it will be a bad match-up for us.
thanks for sharing, btw
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- Tethlis
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
It's definitely important to keep things in perspective. Wood Elves are an extreme: we're fragile, we need to get the charge, and High Elves negate that advantage since they Always Strike First. That will force us to adapt. Most other armies are used to being charged by High Elves: whether High Elves strike first or not doesn't matter. The thing that Always Strikes First gives to High Elves is the ability for their expensive troops to survive charges by faster opponents. Swordmasters and the like were at the mercy of M6+ troops, and now High Elves have a fighting chance against those opponents. All Games Workshop did was fix the obvious drawback for expensive, lightly-armored infantry.Lord Voldemorten wrote:to me though, as many of my regular opponents play HE already, and as you stated, it will be a bad match-up for us.
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
Asur had problems against all armies with high armour or gunlines. The Strike First will not help them there - only make their models more expensive (which means less models needed to kill for the gunline). It's a fix, but it backfired.
The only place it will have affect is against other Elves, which throws the fluff out the window. Only Elves and Chaos Mortals have I5 on basic troops. So High Elves would strike before almost all troops in the warhammer world anyway, except other Elves and Chaos. I don't see why High Elves are so much quicker than our Wardancers. I truly don't.
~ Nag
The only place it will have affect is against other Elves, which throws the fluff out the window. Only Elves and Chaos Mortals have I5 on basic troops. So High Elves would strike before almost all troops in the warhammer world anyway, except other Elves and Chaos. I don't see why High Elves are so much quicker than our Wardancers. I truly don't.
~ Nag
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
From what I heard, it's not just a factor of being quicker. It also has to do with training, and the fact that High Elves are accustomed to centuries of defensive warfare. Their formations are designed to aid one another, using Elven agillity to exploit weaknesses in the charging enemy while minimizing the weaknesses of the defending High Elves. It's not that they're faster than Wardancers: they're just trained to withstand and hold against charges a heck of a lot better. This is being simulated by the fact that High Elves get to strike first.
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
Withstand a charge has nothing to do with striking first. To strike first you will either need long (very long) weapons or lightning-quick reflexes (preferably combined with long weapons). And their defensive training should not surpass the offensive training and godly blessings of Wardancers that much. The dancers' initiative of 6 means that they're quicker. Their stealthness tells me they can spring surprise attacks. Etc.
I agree that High Elves can read the charge and maybe hit the enemy weapon aside as they thrust their weapon in for an attack. But that would only be if charged somewhere they can see. If I were in war, I would not be able to read a charge I cannot see or hear. I am 100% for striking first - as long as it is to the front only.
~ Nag
I agree that High Elves can read the charge and maybe hit the enemy weapon aside as they thrust their weapon in for an attack. But that would only be if charged somewhere they can see. If I were in war, I would not be able to read a charge I cannot see or hear. I am 100% for striking first - as long as it is to the front only.
~ Nag
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
I am kinda with Naggy on this one, though I would change it just a bit. With their high initiative, I would simply suggest allowing them to strike in initiative order all the time. That would help them against most armies, except for Chaos or other Elves, which they could still beat Chaos, by outmaneuvering them, and against other elves, it would be a fair match. It would help them out, keep the same spirit of the rule, plus keep inline with the fluff.
The key to eating a black and white cookie is that you wanna get some black and some white in each bite. Nothing mixes better than vanilla and chocolate. And yet still somehow racial harmony eludes us. If people would only look to the cookie, all our problems would be solved.
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
I've championed the idea of striking in Initiative order for two months now.
Who said Wardancers are stealthy? They're flamboyant, brightly colored and tattooed acrobats. I don't know about not being able to see or anything. Besides, if you're in the second or third rank of a big regiment, you can't see straight ahead because there's someone in the way. You can only see to the sides, and I imagine the back ranks are paying as much attention to threats to the side as they are to the front. Just imagine that High Elf training accounts for a variety of battlefield eventualities, including flank charges.
We keep coming back to the idea that Always Striking First is a factor of speed. I agree that it can be, but I think that what the High Elves are going for isn't necessary speed. Them striking first is a lot of factors: long spears, advanced formations designed to support one another, years of training, Elven reflexes. No race in all of Warhammer Fantasy is designed to work as efficiently as a unit as High Elves. That's been represented for a long time by Spearmen fighting in three ranks. High Elves are trained, efficient, and work damn well together. That's what Always Strikes First represents: the unit combining superior Elven reflexes with all their training to be extremely effective against charging opponents.
Who said Wardancers are stealthy? They're flamboyant, brightly colored and tattooed acrobats. I don't know about not being able to see or anything. Besides, if you're in the second or third rank of a big regiment, you can't see straight ahead because there's someone in the way. You can only see to the sides, and I imagine the back ranks are paying as much attention to threats to the side as they are to the front. Just imagine that High Elf training accounts for a variety of battlefield eventualities, including flank charges.
We keep coming back to the idea that Always Striking First is a factor of speed. I agree that it can be, but I think that what the High Elves are going for isn't necessary speed. Them striking first is a lot of factors: long spears, advanced formations designed to support one another, years of training, Elven reflexes. No race in all of Warhammer Fantasy is designed to work as efficiently as a unit as High Elves. That's been represented for a long time by Spearmen fighting in three ranks. High Elves are trained, efficient, and work damn well together. That's what Always Strikes First represents: the unit combining superior Elven reflexes with all their training to be extremely effective against charging opponents.
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
I agree that ASF will be very hard for us to overcome with our poorly armored, low T elves, but Dryads will still be able to handle Spearmen and Archers with ease, we just may need to field them in units larger than 8.
But we are uniquely suited to tackle an army made up of Low T, low armor blocks of infantry. Lots and lots of accurate arrows! Something which we can put out in volume like very few other armies can.
The new edition of the Wood elves did a great job of shifting others' perception of us from being the shooty army to being the sneaky/fighty army. Against the High Elves, this new perception is something we need to shift back.
But we are uniquely suited to tackle an army made up of Low T, low armor blocks of infantry. Lots and lots of accurate arrows! Something which we can put out in volume like very few other armies can.
The new edition of the Wood elves did a great job of shifting others' perception of us from being the shooty army to being the sneaky/fighty army. Against the High Elves, this new perception is something we need to shift back.
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If you refuse to capitalize on your strengths or make the most of your opponent's weaknesses, you are begging to lose.
There is no combat without movement.
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
I find it quite likely that we'll see Grand Tournament and other competitive lists running 2x 10 Glade Guard, and 2x 10 Dryads to help manage High Elves. I just realized the Standard Alter is going to have a tougher time of things as well... Might be time to find some defensive wargear for him.
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
Their archers are almost as good as ours and cost the same. LSG are just about as efficient (cost 1/3 more but 1/3 more resistant). Shooting in 2 or 3 ranks makes them much more 'dense', especially when supported by RBT. They are also move and fire, so the are harder to outmaneuver. With terrain on our side, we can mask some of the army while concentrating on the rest, with the law of Delta Squared working for us, and terrain also may make their shooting a lot less effective.
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
If Lothern Sea Guard are on the move, they'll be less accurate and likely won't be able to fire with their second rank. If they deploy wide to maximize shooting, that means fewer ranks to bust. Their versatility will make them quite a nasty choice, and very useful in spite of their point cost. However, I have complete confidence in the power of Glade Guard parked in trees when it comes to outshooting other Elves. Besides, LSG shooting at Glade Guard won't be shooting at the combat unit sneaking up behind them...
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
i'm with Tethlis on the striking first issue.
If you've seen 300, the part where the Spartans find the people nailed to the tree,and when they hear the noise (which turns out to be a boy), within a split second they are ready to fight in their phalanx formation, despite them being pre-occupied by the horrid sight in front of them.
of course the high elves haven't been brought up as warriors from age 7.......or have they? it seems they do nothing else but train for pending attacks by their traitorous brethren
this is slightly OT, but has anyone else noticed how they are getting closer and closer to resembling Eldar completely? look at the new lances for example, there's a fluid design that is exactly the same on shining spears.
does that mean the DE are going to resemble the Dark Eldar? will they be.....more spiky? seems more like a chaos thing to me.
just figure about the LSG vs GG, if the GG are parked in trees, and at close range, they are at -1 to hit, and S4, whereas if the LSG move and fire like you said, that's -2 to hit the GG with only 1 rank....
If you've seen 300, the part where the Spartans find the people nailed to the tree,and when they hear the noise (which turns out to be a boy), within a split second they are ready to fight in their phalanx formation, despite them being pre-occupied by the horrid sight in front of them.
of course the high elves haven't been brought up as warriors from age 7.......or have they? it seems they do nothing else but train for pending attacks by their traitorous brethren
this is slightly OT, but has anyone else noticed how they are getting closer and closer to resembling Eldar completely? look at the new lances for example, there's a fluid design that is exactly the same on shining spears.
does that mean the DE are going to resemble the Dark Eldar? will they be.....more spiky? seems more like a chaos thing to me.
just figure about the LSG vs GG, if the GG are parked in trees, and at close range, they are at -1 to hit, and S4, whereas if the LSG move and fire like you said, that's -2 to hit the GG with only 1 rank....
Who clicks on these anyways?Atlarge wrote: It's not GW if you're not scraping off a dozen nonsensical skulls from each model.
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
I am thinking that Wood Elves will have to resort to more strict themes of pure elf or pure forest spirit for strategies. It is either gonna be sit back and shoot the hell out of those tin heads with massed Glade Guard and Riders and then counter charge with Eternal Guard or simply go crashing forwards with a horde of tree creatures that they will have a tough time wounding.
That being said. The kinda of White Lions I have always imagined is now possible. Khoril with 2 units on ieither side as he leads some Warriors with Spears into the fray would be cool , especially with lion chariots on either side of him. I mean 2 Core Choices leaves so much room for cheese I can already smell it in the basement where my buddy left his army in disgust. 4 Rare Choices is even cheesier. 6 Specials, that is the overkill. 6 Lion Chariots???? 6 Units of Swordmasters??? I am still in disbelief that this is all true cause it totally topples the very refined sleection system GW has in place.
Someone better go steal that book and give us the full lowdown.
That being said. The kinda of White Lions I have always imagined is now possible. Khoril with 2 units on ieither side as he leads some Warriors with Spears into the fray would be cool , especially with lion chariots on either side of him. I mean 2 Core Choices leaves so much room for cheese I can already smell it in the basement where my buddy left his army in disgust. 4 Rare Choices is even cheesier. 6 Specials, that is the overkill. 6 Lion Chariots???? 6 Units of Swordmasters??? I am still in disbelief that this is all true cause it totally topples the very refined sleection system GW has in place.
Someone better go steal that book and give us the full lowdown.
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Re: High Elf rumors, straight from Phil Kelly
I imagine we'll see how things turn up. I would love an opponent who opts to take six units of Swordmasters... My Glade Guard and Treeman can compete to see who kills more. The Lion Chariots might be 0-1 per White Lion regiment choice, etc.
I think we can speculate and have some productive discussion about High Elves, but we should reserve our judgement and cries of "broken" until we actually see the army book.
Like I've mentioned before, it makes perfect sense that we only hear about the good stuff while not hearing about the bad. Okay, so Swordmasters will Always Strike First with two Strength 5 attacks each. Nasty. However, they could easily be 20+ points per model, and are still T3 and 5+ save. Works for me.
I think we can speculate and have some productive discussion about High Elves, but we should reserve our judgement and cries of "broken" until we actually see the army book.
Like I've mentioned before, it makes perfect sense that we only hear about the good stuff while not hearing about the bad. Okay, so Swordmasters will Always Strike First with two Strength 5 attacks each. Nasty. However, they could easily be 20+ points per model, and are still T3 and 5+ save. Works for me.