charge / chargereaction flee

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charge / chargereaction flee

Postby bark » 30 Jan 2007, 13:11

hiho,

in the last game a very complicated situation occured, and i´am not sure if we had resolved it correctly.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o152 ... est008.jpg

in above diagramm:

unit A +B are treekin
unit 1 are chaos knights
unit 2 are chosesn chaos knights including a hero

unit A declared a charge on unit 1
unit B declared a charge into the rear of unit 2 (passed the feartest an holded)

unit 1 chosed to flee, ran through unit 2 (which passed the panic test) and ended a few inches behind unit 2

as charge distance was long enough, unit A moved straight into unit 2 (again passed the feartest)

but now unit 1 was standing in the chargeway of unit B.


is unit 1 destroyed, because an enemy unit is touching it?
will unit 1 make another fleemovement, even with no charge declared on it?
will unit B charge its inital target?
will unit B chrage after unit 1?

thx for helping.

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Postby tegilagos » 30 Jan 2007, 13:51

Very good question.

1. Unit B should have charged first, than everything would be fine (unit 1 destroyed)

2. I think in your situation unit B must wheel to the left till it touches unit 1 and will than crash into unit 1, which has to flee (through unit A being pobably destroyed), as unit 1 is fleeing in skirmishing formation unit B would move on forward to NW until it touches unit 2 and is than wheeled in to bring most possible units into contact.

The only other solution would be, that unit B failes its charge.

3. I do not habe my rulesbook here at my office, but the online errata FAQ has a section "enemy in the way" and refers to the rulesbook page 23 and 21. Maybe there is some valuable information.
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Re: charge / chargereaction flee

Postby Noxmenno » 30 Jan 2007, 14:24

Tetilagos, in this case it doesn't matter in which order the charges are declared or moved. Unit 1 flees during the compulsory part of the movement phase, before chargers are moved.
Bark, judging from your drawing something else might happen, as per the enemy in the way rules. I'll try to explain:

bark wrote:is unit 1 destroyed, because an enemy unit is touching it?

No, not automatically because:
bark wrote:will unit 1 make another fleemovement, even with no charge declared on it?

The enemy in the way rules say you have the choice to either stop in front of the new target or declare a new charge on the new target. In the second case, the new target has to make a charge reaction. Since the unit is fleeing it has only one option: to flee again.
bark wrote:will unit B charge its inital target?
will unit B chrage after unit 1?

If unit B declares a new charge at unit 1, it has to try to reach it. If your drawing is accurate it seems like unit B will not get into combat with unit 2.
If this is the case, then your opponent made a very lucky flee roll with his knights :)
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Postby tegilagos » 30 Jan 2007, 15:57

Noxmenno, yes you are right.

But I still think, that unit 1 flees away from its new charger (unit B) in direction NW and if it flees through unit A, which seems likely as unit B would wheel until it runs into unit 1 so , it (unit 1) would be destroyed.
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Postby bark » 31 Jan 2007, 12:20

@ tegilagos,

yes there is a paragraph in the rulebook, but as it often happens, you won`t find that special paragraph if you look for it in the heat of the battle.

and no, unit 1 won´t be destroyed, it will flee directly away from unit B as this unit was in its flank.

thx, topic ready to close


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Postby Noxmenno » 31 Jan 2007, 14:08

Just a final note to you bark and tegilagos. I don't think you guys play the 'fleeing from chargers' part quite correctly.

tegilagos wrote:But I still think, that unit 1 flees away from its new charger (unit B) in direction NW and if it flees through unit A, which seems likely as unit B would wheel until it runs into unit 1 so , it (unit 1) would be destroyed.

What does unit B's wheel have to do with anything?
bark wrote:and no, unit 1 won´t be destroyed, it will flee directly away from unit B as this unit was in its flank.

Being in its flank has nothing to do with where the unit flees either.

A unit fleeing from a charge flees directly away from the center of the charging unit. This is clearly shown in the BRB. It has nothing to do with flanks, wheels or anything else.
Judging from the drawing this means that unit 1 would survive (if it outruns the second unit of treekin).
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Postby tegilagos » 31 Jan 2007, 15:40

When skirmishers flee from an attack (as reaction to the charge) you draw a line through the center of the attacking unit and the closest, visible skirmishing unit ( 1st possible contact). You than move this model along the line in the rolled distance. Than all other skirmishers are moved the same distance in the same direction, displacing the whole unit. (See Errata on uk hp of GW). Right?
Of course I assume, that a unit which has fleed flees like a skirmisher until it rallies and is in "normal" formation again.

But you are right the wheel has nothing to do with it, I was mistaken, the wheel would only be important if the attacked unit would be a skirmisher and stand and than flee after loosing cc. In the example unit 1 would not flee through unit A.
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Postby Brynjolf Irontooth » 31 Jan 2007, 15:55

Fleeing troops aren't actually skirmishers!

You will also never suffer from a -1 to hit when shooting at them for example.

You just make a fleemove with them as if they were in a ranked formation.


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Postby tegilagos » 01 Feb 2007, 10:35

Yesterday I asked in our local WH-club. Our rulemasters said, that a unit can flee only once per turn (in 7 th ed.) and unit 1 would be destroyed if in the attackpass of unit B. I don't know if this really is true but I think I remember something like that in the rulesbook.
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Postby Noxmenno » 01 Feb 2007, 12:26

Could you please ask him to give a page reference? I can't remember reading anything like that. Maybe I've missed it, but I can't seem to find it now either.

EDIT: I think I've found what your friend is referring to. There's a question in the FAQ that deals with a charging unit declaring a new charge at a target unit it originally charged:

warhammer_v7_faq.pdf wrote:Q. Can the Enemy in the Way rule allow you to charge
the same target multiple times? For example, the initial
target (unit A) flees through friendly unit B (which
doesn't panic), stopping just behind it. The charger may
thus change the charge towards target unit B. Unit B
then flees as well, going through unit A. Can the charger
now change the target back to unit A? And what happens
if the unit in the way is not visible to the charger?

A. Yes, and this process will continue until the situation
comes to either a successful charge or a failed charge.
Note that units that are charged again through this
process do not get a new charge reaction, which may
sometimes mean that when the charging unit will finally
move its full charge distance, it may destroy several units
that fled from its charge (see diagram below).


In that case the charged unit indeed doesn't get to make another charge response. However, I don't know how far the wording "this process" was intended to extend. Does it extend to a second charging unit? I'll post this question on TWF.
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Postby Fr0 » 04 Feb 2007, 12:55

Treat it as charging fleeing troops...

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Postby Noxmenno » 04 Feb 2007, 22:08

Fr0 wrote:Treat it as charging fleeing troops...

Fr0

Yep, this seems to be the consensus on TWF too.
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