Sisters of the thorn

[Cernunnos]

Or, how many is too many???

I am intrigued by this unit, still not bought any though I am tempted? IF I do buy some, I'm thinking of 1 unit, how big should this unit be?

[Aezeal]

as a mage bunker I'd say 10, definately more than 5 (which means you'll probably get 10 anyway). I'd personally not use them for anything else either (actually I don't use them at all so I'll have to admit I'm biased - I just prefer the raw power of my WR).

[razorfate]

Number of your characters inside unit + sisters of Thorn=10
Number of sisters shall be greater than 7 (It should be enough with a formula like this)

[Phazael]

If you are going to make the deathstar net build, then a total unit size of ten is what you want.

I personally think this is not the best way to win with the army and use a pair of 5 packs that serve numerous support roles, from supplemental casters, monster hunters, to traditional fast cavalry roles. If Gladeriders were not mandatory ambush, I would likely use them instead.

[Cernunnos]

I was thinking of a unit of 5, my usual deathstar is either 9 wildriders or 30 eternal guard. But is a unit of 5 SoT viable?

[Aezeal]

Number of your characters inside unit + sisters of Thorn=10
Number of sisters shall be greater than 7 (It should be enough with a formula like this)

With 3 chars that means you start randomizing after 2 dead sisters.. That is not much redundancy for a bunker.

[Kaese]

Unit of five works well enough if you are not playing in a highly competitive games. I've had few games where the unit didn't actually do anythin other than harrass the enemy flanks. In few games the shield and/or curse have been game changing (I don't really like spamming dwellers, purple sun etc. ) For this purpose five models without command has worked for me.

I have also tried to put lvl2 with the five sisters for extra potential. In 3x2 formation it is easy to keep out of charge archs and manouver behind enemy lines. Heavy shooting will wreck your unit, but in most cases it has been really fun to play with.

[Phazael]

Not saying the 5 packs are why I am competitive, but I just want to point out that they do work in a competitive list. I generally am the top BP and overall guy at GTs I have used woodies at the last year (among WE players) or so and always when I brought my two five packs. They are just not as simple to use as the Sisters of the Death Bus. Once people start doing what I am and running lots of true flight, that build is going to vanish overnight, anyhow.

[razorfate]

Does curse of anrehir or iceshard blizzard effect trueflight arrows?

[Aezeal]

Does curse of anrehir or iceshard blizzard effect trueflight arrows?

No, to hit modifiers do not effect them, only lowering BS (Melkoths Mystifing Miasma, shadow) does affect TF GG (and TK archers).

[Cernunnos]

What would be more useful in non comp, 2 units of 5 or 1 unit of 10, I do sometimes run a mounted lvl2 with GR.

[Phazael]

Depends on your needs and the rest of the army.

I run MSU, with a unicorn and lots of true flight backing it up. The two five packs serve numerous roles for me, so that's what I use. If you don't need monster hunting from them and/or do not like High Lore, then go with the bus or take one unit and a warhawk unit.

[Billthesurly]

I have not yet used the Sisters but I am planning to real soon and have been doing some research on the subject. A hand of five Sisters with a Musician and a Standard with the Lichbone Pennant looks good. (I saw it online.) The Lichbone pennant is cheap and it lowers their ward save vs magic attacks to 3+. Not bad at all. If you bunker your Weaver in there with a Talisman of Preservation she gets the 3+ ward v magic too.

While it is true that a five sister unit begins randomizing casualties faster than a unit of 7 or 10 - considering that this unit is avoiding being shot at for all it's worth it shouldn't have time to become too much of a problem. Besides, randomizing 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 is still pretty good odds.

And isn't it nice that they just happen to come five in a box?

[Cernunnos]

Just ordered 1 unit box.

[sunstrider]

I've found that units of 5 aren't very effective. Between the possibility of losing sisters to miscasts, taking casualities from ranged attacks and the short range of their ranged attack, units of 5 just don't have the bulk to take a few causalities and still make a meaningful impact on the game.

Perhaps I've been using them wrong, but I feel their effectiveness increases greatly in units of 10, even without a character for them to shield. Units of 5 work well for other units like wild riders.

[razorfate]

Units of five can be very powerful with two curses. Other than that they can flee and regroup. And with 4++ward save and careful maneuvuring they can be very hard to get rid of. A level 4 spellweaver with dispel scroll can contribute to the dispel phase.

[youngseward]

I may be misinterpreting what you guys mean by "randomising", but when a unit with a character is hit by shooting and it has less than 5 rank and file models, hits are allocated not randomised.

[Phazael]

@Sunstrider-
Razorfate covered most of it, but here is what I typically use my Sisters for (when I rock the unicorn):

1) Monster/Chariot/War Machine/Chaff hunting- The poison attacks, extreme speed, and general resiliency make them excellent at bringing down unarmored monsters, many chariots, and any war machine. They can't be stomped and have solid LD and a 4++, so they can engage a lot of monsters out there and at 150 for a 5 pack with Banner/Muso, they can tackle most of the common monsters or chariots in the game and consistently win combats. They absolutely wreck other chaff units one on one.

2) Supplemental Magic- Two extra channels a turn is helpful. Also, once I have a decent stable of counters (or I do not wish to risk losing the unicorn to a late game miscast), I squeeze off curse from them late game. And if you are like me and running some cannon bait unit, lifebloom is another tool in the box to keep those models from dying. Obviously, if a unit is down to 2-3 girls, you just don't cast with them unless its absolutely needed.

3) Fast Cavalry- Since Glade Riders are mandatory Ambush, there is a decided lack of feign flight units to use early in the game. Sometimes, the Wild Riders need a frenzy escort of screening from enemy shooting. Sometimes you need to set up a double flee to take heat off of the Gladeguard. Sometimes you need a late game chaff unit to fall on its sword and deflect a death star away from your points. Small sisters unit excel at this and unlike Eagles they are far more likely to be around late in the game.

[Kaese]

Sisters can be a real pain in the ass against melee heavy armies, if you manage to find a gap to slip through their line. If they turn a unit around to hunt the sisters, that unit basically does nothing for the rest of the game. Otherwise your can safely do whatever you wish. Behind enemy lines is basically the safest place where your sisters can be unless the enemy can throw multiple shots at them.

A unit of five sisters can really win a combat in your favour by setting a rear charge to a enemy unit that would otherwise win the combat. 4++ gives them some protection, unless the enemy has multiple attacks per model. I have tried glade riders for this as well, but the extra +3 combat resolution quickly turns into -5 if the enemy knows how to hit back.

[Aezeal]

I'm not convinced that 5 sisters vs a strong monster or a unit of chariots is a good idea. It's only 5 attacks which still need to hit.. poison is fun.. but still..not sure that is a win situation.

[Phazael]

I was not talking about units of chariots, but they do the trick against single monsters and solo chariots of most types. This is especially true if your opponent disregards them as a threat and exposes a flank or rear (or is worried about wild riders from another direction).

The basic chaos chariot, even from the front, pumps out 6 attacks, averaging around one and change wounds a round after saves to the Sisters. Between the deer and the riders, the Sisters, you likely push at least one back. In most circumstances, the Sisters are definitely getting at least a charge and a banner in that fight, putting you up by two. If they expose anything other than a front arc, they are looking at being down by four on average. Unless said chariot is very near its LD bubble (which generally they are not), the chariot is in very real danger of breaking and running. And that's a chaos warrior chariot.

Monsters are in the same ballpark. Lets take a decent monster that sees play, like a Soul Grinder as an example. Its big, tough, and has decent saves. A Grinder is, on average, going to kill one Sister a round. This means that you are already winning combat without even picking up the dice to attack. Any monster with poor saves that's not ASF is in real trouble. Terrorgeists eat an average of 2-3 wound a round from Sisters while only doing one wound back, routinely one rounding them on the charge. Even greater Daemons have to take the threat somewhat seriously, as a combination of whiffing and a couple clutch saves could leave them on the wrong end of combat resolution. Really, the only monster that I won't engage with the Sisters are ones that pump out tons of attacks, like the Abomb. The rest are very beatable targets for a five pack.

The main thing is that it absolutely blows peoples minds when you engage with them, because most players are either used to seeing the bus build or are so focused on the Wild Riders that they forget Sisters are able to fight.

[Billthesurly]

I may be misinterpreting what you guys mean by "randomising", but when a unit with a character is hit by shooting and it has less than 5 rank and file models, hits are allocated not randomised.

If you start with a unit of 5 Sisters you get an excuse me sir roll vs a hit deliberately made on your Weaver. If the unit takes shooting casualties they come off the rank and file for that first volly. After that, unless the number of hits received matches or exceeds the number of figures left in the unit, the hits are randomly rolled to see which figure is actually the one hit. That's what we mean by randomizing. (That's what I mean at any rate.)

[Aezeal]

I may be misinterpreting what you guys mean by "randomising", but when a unit with a character is hit by shooting and it has less than 5 rank and file models, hits are allocated not randomised.

If you start with a unit of 5 Sisters you get an excuse me sir roll an a hit deliberately made on your Weaver. If the unit takes shooting casualties they come off the rank and file for that first volly. After that, unless the number of hits received matches or exceeds the number of figures left in the unit, the hits are randomly rolled to see which figure is actually the one hit. That's what we mean by randomizing. (That's what I mean at any rate.)

Well that is not really what the BRB says you should do, Seward is right you (controlling player) need to allocate (I always say randomize too I must admit). Allocating makes the character even more save though. If you get 4 hits on 4 sisters and the character you can just give the 4 hits to the sisters (and then work those out seperately. The 5th MUST then be on the char (only allowed to allocate a 2nd wound after every model has recieved a wound).

Theoretically: 9 hits.
2 on each of the 4 sisters, 1 on the char.
You allocate them and roll seperately (this could be debated but imho since you allocate you have to resolve seperately) for each model. 2 sisters each get 2 wounds and die, the other sisters and the char do not get wounded: even though they did 4 wounds only 2 sisters die.

[Polycotton]

I also find units of 5 useful. As has been stated; they are the only chaff-like fast cavalry we have outside of the unreliable glade riders. I haven't fielded them with a standard and musician but will do so after reading this thread. I like the idea of duffing up chariots and soul grinders.
They are a spare L2 mage with a great spell and ability to heal. They can redirect and clear chaff and otherwise perform a variety of roles that will buy you time.

[Billthesurly]

Well that is not really what the BRB says you should do,

If I had a unit with 3 sisters and a character and the unit took 2 hits I would roll a random dice to see which two figures in the unit have been hit and then carry on accordingly.

This may be incorrect usage but it is what I (and apparently everybody I play) has become used to. It's a pitfall of having played this game for 25 years. The different versions of the rules become mixed up in your head and unless you play a lot (I don't anymore) you have a hard time keeping them straight. And then sometimes everyone in a certain meta becomes used to doing a thing a certain way - then one day somebody will actually re-read the rule and announce to one and all that the way we've been playing has been wrong!

I can/will play it either way. So long as it is played consistently.