Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Baardah »

Oh, dont worry. I plan to ignorere the heck out of the end time rules. New models can only be a good thing though.

However. The problem is the feeling that my alternative background, or the background up until the end time events, is the wrong one. I know there isn't any right or wrong in a fantasy setting. It's just that all the suspense is gone when you know in the back of your head that it all went to <b>[censored]</b> anyway.
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Kakapo42 »

Baardah wrote:However. The problem is the feeling that my alternative background, or the background up until the end time events, is the wrong one. I know there isn't any right or wrong in a fantasy setting. It's just that all the suspense is gone when you know in the back of your head that it all went to <b>[censored]</b> anyway.
Yeah that is extremely hard, and a big reason why I'm still a bit hesitant to actually publish any of the alternate storyline I've come up with. For my own part I can ignore that feeling with enough positive reactions from audiences - if enough other people want to read and enjoy my alternative background, or even prefer it to the End Times background, then I consider it enough of a win that I don't mind it being 'wrong' quite as much, but that might just work for me because I'm something of a storyteller at heart and may not be enough for others.

It's also a big reason why I'm so strongly advocating for multiple alternatives to the End Times background - it's harder to get a feeling that one's alternate background is the wrong one if there's no general consensus on what background is 'right'.

Still the path of ignoring the End Times background is definitely not the easiest for those who choose it, but if the choice is between a niggling feeling in the back of your head that the background you're following is wrong and it really all goes belly-up or not enjoying Warhammer Fantasy at all, I think I myself would go with the former.
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by hutobega »

What I personally plan on doing is saying my Wood elf force left the forest and found a smaller forest somewhere in the main land to hide for now ( I only have about 2500 points MAX) And the few trees I have were roused to life with the presence of my spell weaver. They are not sitting out the fight of the End times they are sneaking in from behind to lay some serious hurt in the enemies side. ( Hows that for some fun fluff)
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Aezeal »

I'll just be using my warkhawks, wildriders, gg, scouts and waywatchers and add whatever I like from the other lists.

They'll be teaching their homeless cousins forestcraft and in return they'll try to get their hands on some armor by winning it through playing dice.


The result will be this for 9th edition:

I will have wild wood rangers with WL stats, stubborness and that fancy lioncloak thingy ... if only...

My wildriders will get their hands on heavy armor and learn some tricks from the warlocks (who unlike the sister DO want to share with their bethren) and will end up being 2+, 4++, doombolt casting frenzied devastating charging stagriding machines of yet even more death.

My warkhawk riders will switch to young frost phoenixes for more even more damage. The sisters will also get an option to ride a Phoenix of course.

The eternal guard will merge with the Phoenix guard and it will end up being well basicly the Phoenix guard in green I guess (does the eternal guard have anything which is better than the Phoenix guard has? if so we keep that too.. Always best of both worlds).
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Furyou Miko »

Anyone considering posting up an alternative timeline where the Wood Elves are the stars instead of the WHFB equivalent of the native Britons, go for it!

A great deal of fun can be had with such projects, much like they did with the Dornian Heresy and Roboute Rebellion over on B&C.
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Kakapo42 »

Furyou Miko wrote:Anyone considering posting up an alternative timeline where the Wood Elves are the stars instead of the WHFB equivalent of the native Britons, go for it!
That's just the sort of encouragement I like to hear.
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Phil Rossiter »

What this fluff basically does is complete the Grimdarking of Warhammer.

It's like a mega version of the 6th edition Bretonnian book. Where their players suddenly found out no they weren't playing knights in shining armour anymore, just exploitative chancers who wanted to look good.

People play High Elves (and Wood Elves for related but differing reasons) for the archetypes, the heroic struggle against the dark, the clear definition that no these are not Dark Elves and never will be. That just went out of the window.

Now personally, I can take or leave GW's fluff. But a game-world where mythical and 'in the head' divisions get ridden over roughshod in favour of 'everyone's a ****' to sell more models is a massive shift. This is not the real world, it's fantasy and that works by pulling at powerful old things in people's heads, not one person's made-up story.
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by nXken »

I chose WE for their dualistic nature...

They are part cruel and vicious egocentric (forest-centric) murderers... and part noble creatures sworn to protect their piece of the world and nurture a positive symbiosis...

Not so much changes now... but I didn't want to be the white nor black version... I was happy in grey
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Balakul »

nXken wrote:I chose WE for their dualistic nature...

They are part cruel and vicious egocentric (forest-centric) murderers... and part noble creatures sworn to protect their piece of the world and nurture a positive symbiosis...

Not so much changes now... but I didn't want to be the white nor black version... I was happy in grey
This, exactly! Nothing more I could add in to this thought.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________-

Now this is would be fluffy wood army: Lots of chariots. Than one or two of those big dark elder chariot devices.Rest wood elf core escort for caravan. Now, this is one fluffy army, imagine it glide trough forest :D with all those wooden tiers!
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Aezeal »

nXken wrote:I chose WE for their dualistic nature...

They are part cruel and vicious egocentric (forest-centric) murderers... and part noble creatures sworn to protect their piece of the world and nurture a positive symbiosis...

Not so much changes now... but I didn't want to be the white nor black version... I was happy in grey
I don't get your reply.. I get the first line.. and agree.. but the second line is a mystery to me. I think we are still in they grey, just because Malekith is king now the rest of the elves wont'change. I think all elves are a bit more grey now. (But HE never where really white anyway IMHO). I think that the DE attitude will change most really..
Phil Rossiter wrote:What this fluff basically does is complete the Grimdarking of Warhammer.

It's like a mega version of the 6th edition Bretonnian book. Where their players suddenly found out no they weren't playing knights in shining armour anymore, just exploitative chancers who wanted to look good.

People play High Elves (and Wood Elves for related but differing reasons) for the archetypes, the heroic struggle against the dark, the clear definition that no these are not Dark Elves and never will be. That just went out of the window.

Now personally, I can take or leave GW's fluff. But a game-world where mythical and 'in the head' divisions get ridden over roughshod in favour of 'everyone's a ****' to sell more models is a massive shift. This is not the real world, it's fantasy and that works by pulling at powerful old things in people's heads, not one person's made-up story.
I disagree I think the whole race will be a bit more neutral but in the end HE fought DE because of politics and whatever else they did in the world was also politics.. they where never a really white/ good guy thing, only compared to the DE maybe (but those ended up being right in supporting the rejected prince...) I think that the whole race will STAY isolated (HE where very isolated too, only a bit less compared to WE and DE) will prefer thinking only about elves and the rest of the world comes after. They will be a force of Order though so if anything they stay on the lighter side of grey, certainly not darker (so DE loose the most really). WE basicly loose nothing fluffwise.. we stay light gray, we stay isolated, we even stay in the forest (unlike sunken Ulthuan), we only loose 1 character (Ariel trade for Alarielle is not a loss).
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by nXken »

Aezeal wrote:I don't get your reply.. I get the first line.. and agree.. but the second line is a mystery to me. I think we are still in they grey, just because Malekith is king now the rest of the elves wont'change. I think all elves are a bit more grey now. (But HE never where really white anyway IMHO). I think that the DE attitude will change most really..
What I meant was:
Grey was our thing!
HE had their goddie-goodie-two-shoes kinda thing... mentality
DE has pirates and naked chicks.... and darkness

Now they join us on our own turf... under their own rules / management....

I am happy we're all together... but i see us as 3 different people... And when u look at modern history (and even Celtic and Germans) you can't force "related tribes" to live together.
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Aezeal »

You are wrong: in light of impending DOOOOOOOM (I mean half the world is conquered or nearly conquered by demons and undead... lets NOT step over that too lightly) a lot of comprimises/unlikely alliances can and will be made EVEN in recent and ancient history. It's clear in the fluff that basicly none of the elves are really happy with it (which is realistic).. it's just a nessecity.

I really think that is the problem with most complainers they don't see the bigger picture. Hello.. WORLD WAR GOING ON ( OW good analogy btw communist russia and US worked together then... after crisis was past.. not so much) things NEED to happen or the whole world will be whiped off the map. DE are still elves have always been seen as somewhat of kin.. their king seems to have a legit claim to our throne and there also was a lot of nasty politics involved where the HE backing Malekith did it ONLY to either be against Tyrion (which happened ALL the time in RL past) or because they think it's the best way to ensure (high) elven survival in the End Times (pretty good reason I'd say).


PLZ keep the bigger picture in mind...

Having said that you could imagine them all in-fighting in the future after endtimes (but I doubt GW will split them up).
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by T.D. »

Phil Rossiter wrote:What this fluff basically does is complete the Grimdarking of Warhammer.

It's like a mega version of the 6th edition Bretonnian book. Where their players suddenly found out no they weren't playing knights in shining armour anymore, just exploitative chancers who wanted to look good.

People play High Elves (and Wood Elves for related but differing reasons) for the archetypes, the heroic struggle against the dark, the clear definition that no these are not Dark Elves and never will be. That just went out of the window.

Now personally, I can take or leave GW's fluff. But a game-world where mythical and 'in the head' divisions get ridden over roughshod in favour of 'everyone's a ****' to sell more models is a massive shift. This is not the real world, it's fantasy and that works by pulling at powerful old things in people's heads, not one person's made-up story.
I agree. Archetypes are the main pull of fantasy, whereas relentless grimdark -- 40k -- gets old pretty quickly (to me, at least).
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by aFaun »

Phil Rossiter wrote: People play High Elves (and Wood Elves for related but differing reasons) for the archetypes, the heroic struggle against the dark, the clear definition that no these are not Dark Elves and never will be. That just went out of the window.
Amen, Brother. And having three different elven faction makes (made?) the game more interesting and colorful. The new fluff is cool and even original to a degree, but I'm a little bit afraid of this whole homogenisation and grimdarkness. It all depends on how the End Times will end, and how GW will continue the story in 9th edition.
I'm curious: what will happen to the wild riders without Orion? My poor little psychopathic mass murderers... (By the way, the Wild Hunt was cool, but it made no sense. According to HE AB Kurnous forbids the unnecessary killing of animals... Or its just about animals, and not humans, or other sentient humanoid creatures? :paranoid: Hunting, in my book, is not equal to mercilessly slaughter everything in your path.)

Oh, and I'm trying to create some kind of fluff for my army, for a year and a half now, without much success. I don't know, why its so hard, I'm usually good at this, being a veteran roleplayer and all that. Maybe I just had no good ideas. :smoke: And now i have to - ok, i don't really have to, but i want to - incorporate End Times fluff into my story. So it just got harder!
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

This seems like a big restart to the way the company has approached the Elves. The idea of an evil elf race isn't unique, and "dark elf" is even less. By combining the high and dark they can replace both with something more unique. This way they can write new fluff and gain new copy rights, all the while maintaining the 3 main "arch-types" of good, evil, and us(good, but non-interventionist).
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by nXken »

Looking forward to Forest-Pirates :)
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Furyou Miko »

Phil Rossiter wrote:
I'm curious: what will happen to the wild riders without Orion? My poor little psychopathic mass murderers... (By the way, the Wild Hunt was cool, but it made no sense. According to HE AB Kurnous forbids the unnecessary killing of animals... Or its just about animals, and not humans, or other sentient humanoid creatures? :paranoid: Hunting, in my book, is not equal to mercilessly slaughter everything in your path.)
The Wild Hunt existed in the fluff because the Wood Elves have, historically, been folkloric faeries rather than noble elves like the LotR-inspired High Elves - yes, LotR has Wood Elves, and the pseudo-barbaric nature warrior side of the Wood Elves comes from there (and, sadly, was chosen to be emphasised specifically in the new army book because some idiot decided that the Wood Elves, defined by their fey nature, were "too fairy"... and that's why we have a human on the cover of our army book), but the wild Hunt, Orion and Ariel, spellsingers, wardancers and revels, Treemen and Dryads are all folkloric.

There's also a need to take into account that the High Elves don't really get Kurnous. The High Elf book attempts to civilise him and make him admirable, because that's what High Elves do - they rationalise, they temporise, and they lie to themselves about how good and pure they are. That's why they're High Elves, because they hold themselves to a higher standard of civilisation. Wood Elves understand the savage nature of Kurnous. He's not a civilised gentleman shooting ducks, what ho. That's the High Elf interpretation. To the Wood Elves, Kurnous is the scent of blood on the wind, the fire in your veins as you give chase, and the kill wet on your hands and hot on your tongue. The Wild Hunt, to the Wood Elves, is a celebration of life and power and victory. It is everything that is great about being a living, breathing part of the world around you.

Of course, to the Brettonians it's a night of absolute terror in which inhuman monsters slaughter all who oppose them, save the unlucky few they turn into hounds to join the hunt.

As for what happens to the Wild Hunt now... I can actually see a future where the Wild Hunt takes all of that bloodlust and aggression that the Dark Elves previously dedicated to Slaanesh and turns it into something wholesome and celebratory, rather than merely cruel and sadistic. Orion will, perhaps, be reborn in time... and his Hunt will be all the stronger, joined not only by Wild Riders and Wardancers, but also by Witch Elves.
Aezeal wrote: I really think that is the problem with most complainers they don't see the bigger picture. Hello.. WORLD WAR GOING ON ( OW good analogy btw communist russia and US worked together then... after crisis was past.. not so much)
[/quote]

That's a really bad analogy. The US mostly fought in the western theatre (Japan, China) while Russia mostly fought in the Eastern theatre (Poland, Germany) in WW2. The Americans really had very little to do with the war in Europe... it wasn't so much a case of "they worked together" as "they didn't get in each others way".
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by nXken »

Divide and conquer :)
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Aezeal »

Furyou Miko wrote:
Phil Rossiter wrote:
I'm curious: what will happen to the wild riders without Orion? My poor little psychopathic mass murderers... (By the way, the Wild Hunt was cool, but it made no sense. According to HE AB Kurnous forbids the unnecessary killing of animals... Or its just about animals, and not humans, or other sentient humanoid creatures? :paranoid: Hunting, in my book, is not equal to mercilessly slaughter everything in your path.)
The Wild Hunt existed in the fluff because the Wood Elves have, historically, been folkloric faeries rather than noble elves like the LotR-inspired High Elves - yes, LotR has Wood Elves, and the pseudo-barbaric nature warrior side of the Wood Elves comes from there (and, sadly, was chosen to be emphasised specifically in the new army book because some idiot decided that the Wood Elves, defined by their fey nature, were "too fairy"... and that's why we have a human on the cover of our army book), but the wild Hunt, Orion and Ariel, spellsingers, wardancers and revels, Treemen and Dryads are all folkloric.

There's also a need to take into account that the High Elves don't really get Kurnous. The High Elf book attempts to civilise him and make him admirable, because that's what High Elves do - they rationalise, they temporise, and they lie to themselves about how good and pure they are. That's why they're High Elves, because they hold themselves to a higher standard of civilisation. Wood Elves understand the savage nature of Kurnous. He's not a civilised gentleman shooting ducks, what ho. That's the High Elf interpretation. To the Wood Elves, Kurnous is the scent of blood on the wind, the fire in your veins as you give chase, and the kill wet on your hands and hot on your tongue. The Wild Hunt, to the Wood Elves, is a celebration of life and power and victory. It is everything that is great about being a living, breathing part of the world around you.

Of course, to the Brettonians it's a night of absolute terror in which inhuman monsters slaughter all who oppose them, save the unlucky few they turn into hounds to join the hunt.

As for what happens to the Wild Hunt now... I can actually see a future where the Wild Hunt takes all of that bloodlust and aggression that the Dark Elves previously dedicated to Slaanesh and turns it into something wholesome and celebratory, rather than merely cruel and sadistic. Orion will, perhaps, be reborn in time... and his Hunt will be all the stronger, joined not only by Wild Riders and Wardancers, but also by Witch Elves.
Aezeal wrote: I really think that is the problem with most complainers they don't see the bigger picture. Hello.. WORLD WAR GOING ON ( OW good analogy btw communist russia and US worked together then... after crisis was past.. not so much)
That's a really bad analogy. The US mostly fought in the western theatre (Japan, China) while Russia mostly fought in the Eastern theatre (Poland, Germany) in WW2. The Americans really had very little to do with the war in Europe... it wasn't so much a case of "they worked together" as "they didn't get in each others way".[/quote]

Hmm wonder what those Americans where doing in Germany then.. just admiring the scenery? D-day movies feature americans too usually. My grandparents I think mentioned american troops too...

Anyway what you said before that where some good lines.. basicly.. we are not loosing much as woodelves... just gaining another king and some more politics.
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by memnon »

Hi, I kind of like the new fluff. The eternal strife between good (HE) VS bad (DE) guys was getting borring. Not to mention that WE were no part of that story. Can't wait for new warhammer audiobooks to come out.
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Ellysia_Banearrow »

Can anyone get a bit more into the details of the Khaine book's fluff? What happened in the Oak of Ages to make us lose our queen to Allerialle? Why did Orion have to die and will he be reborn come the next spring like every year? What's up with the Sisters of Twilight, Drycha, Durthu, and Naith? Araloth somehow Asuryion, how? Isn't Malekith the Avatar of Asuryion since he walked through the flames of the phoenix and survived? Why are all the elves living in Athel Loren? Can they all even fit? Did the forest spirits just suddenly be like "Oh sure, the world is falling down around us, so come and stay in our magical and scared forest" when they didn't want the elves there at all in the first place?

Can anyone clarify?
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Aezeal »

If you've seen Malekith stats you'll know why the spirits keep quiet :D. Loren is a large place.. should be room enough NOW naggaroth is over run by Khorne and Ulthan has SUNKEN
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Kakapo42 »

Ellysia_Banearrow wrote:Can anyone get a bit more into the details of the Khaine book's fluff? What happened in the Oak of Ages to make us lose our queen to Allerialle? Why did Orion have to die and will he be reborn come the next spring like every year? What's up with the Sisters of Twilight, Drycha, Durthu, and Naith? Araloth somehow Asuryion, how? Isn't Malekith the Avatar of Asuryion since he walked through the flames of the phoenix and survived? Why are all the elves living in Athel Loren? Can they all even fit? Did the forest spirits just suddenly be like "Oh sure, the world is falling down around us, so come and stay in our magical and scared forest" when they didn't want the elves there at all in the first place?

Can anyone clarify?

Well I haven't read it myself (and don't really have any desire to, except to confirm a quick couple of facts), but from what I have seen on the Internet:

The Oak of Ages, and by extension Ariel, were apparently poisoned by Lileath as part of her big plan. Allarielle then merges with the ailed Ariel to save her, becoming the full 'avatar' of Isha.

Orion died presumably for the same reasons all the other characters that have in the End Times series - the writers wanted something dramatic. The general consensus is that no he will not be reborn.

Durthu apparently is one of the few characters to square off with Tyrion and survive. The status of the other big Wood Elf characters is unknown to me, there hasn't been much discussion about them, except Daith, who is apparently the 'avatar' of Vaul. I believe he dies to if I remember my Internet information right.

Araloth is not the same Asuryan that's currently empowering Malekith. Lileath sent him to a new world untouched by Chaos with their child to create a new Elven race, effectively becoming an Asuryan MkII.

The Elves have apparently migrated to Athel Loren because Ulthuan has sunk and Naggaroth is overrun by Chaos hordes. I don't know why the Forrest Spirits haven't gone to town on them, but then quite frankly I'm more concerned about why they never dealt with the Beastmen that have supposedly always been in Athel Loren according to the 8th edition book (one of the many things about the new book's background I didn't like, and something my own Asrai have since decried as Talsyn-led hegemony propaganda).

Of course, like I said I'm largely steering clear of all the End Times background, this included. But if you're wondering what happens in it, that seems to be the gist of things. Spoilers have been marked in colour because there doesn't seem to be a spoiler tab option on here.
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Aezeal »

I think the idea of 8th edition is that Athel Loren is HUGE (it Always was btw). Forest spirits and elves are not very numerous so there are LARGE parts of the forest where evil things can lurk... only if elves happen to notice those the beastmen will get eradicated. Not to mention the beastman seem to immigrate to Loren too because they just want to conquer it above apparantly everything else.

I really like the options our new lists have.. the best thing being that IMHO you can put up a good list with MOSTLY former WE units. Personally I only plan on taking a phoenixguard bunker for my mage... maybe with the BotWD. I have some old (like 5th edition or something) HE spearmen from the starter kit we had then... I know that Pheonix guards are halbardeers but I hardly care. I'll give them a nice green/silverish paint and while they'll still look like ugly old models I'll be able to use them for every spearman/ halberdeer in the lists.

Ow and my 2nd mage will be a loremaster I guess :D the WE mage with +1 to cast in Woods will remain one of the best vanilla mages.
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Re: Khaine: Woodelf Fluff Review

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

Furyou Miko wrote:but the wild Hunt, Orion and Ariel, spellsingers, wardancers and revels, Treemen and Dryads are all folkloric.
This is why I've always wished I had the modelling skill to do morris dancing wardancers.

And for the record, I mean this kind of morris dancers:
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Not this type:
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