Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Moderator: Council of Elders

User avatar
FriedTaterExplosion
Bladesinger
Bladesinger
Posts: 662
Joined: 12 Feb 2006, 19:57
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Dwarfs, and Salamanders
Location: United States- Vermont

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by FriedTaterExplosion »

I'm a big fan of both Lore of Life and Lore of Beasts. As mentioned, it really depends on the army list.

Currently I'm running a Triple Tree list and, of course, I'm finding Lore of Life to be so much more helpful for that list. With my eternal guard/character heavy list I find Lore of Beasts to be more useful to buff up the killy power of my highborn and BSB.

Some comments that I have about the various spells in the lores:

Earthblood- Not a great signature- but as Ioreth starmantle mentioned- it can be worth casting just to heal a wound back on a treeman that is nearby. 8+ to restore a wound? Either throw two dice at it, so it likely goes of, or save one dice for the end of the magic phase to have a 50% chance of successfully casting it with a level 4 lifeweaver.

Shield of Thorns: I've used this successfully to kill spirit hosts, hex wraiths and other ethereals, by charging an eagle or eagle rider into the them and then casthing shield of thorns on the eagle. 2d6 str 4 hits (if Throne is already in play) or even 2d6 str 3 hits can eliminate an ethereal unit before combat even begins. Plus, again, the lore attribute.

Transformation of Kadon: This spell gets lots of hate. It can work. I've run a mage in the second rank of my eternal guard bus. Turned the mage into a great fire dragon and due to foot print he moves to the front rank. kill a bunch of stuff with him and end the spell if needed and he pops back into the second rank.
User avatar
Shandrakor
Shadow Sentinel
Shadow Sentinel
Posts: 2397
Joined: 12 Jul 2010, 11:09
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Shandrakor »

WizzyWarlock wrote:Transformation of Kadon
This is the spell I tend to switch out for Wyssan's as it's a spell I'd only use as a 'last stand' sort of move. In the Wood Elf army it removes your level 4 bonus to dispels, stops you casting all those lovely other spells that you need, and also will very likely end in your wizards death when the next round the opponent dispels it and your naked mage is standing there in front of a unit of death dealers. If we had Beasts on Level 2's then I'd certainly leave it on one of those, as a level 2 mage is very cheap, especially without any equipment, while the potential damage from a Mountain Chimera charge could be just devastating. But unfortunately, we can't, so this gets removed for Wyssans.
This is actually untrue. The Wizard is still a Wizard while transformed, and as such, still gets their dispel ability. Transformation of Kadon explicitly states the following:
BRB pg. 493 wrote:... Whilst transformed, the Wizard cannot channel or cast spells, and all of his magic items and mundane equipment (armour, weapons, etc.) temporarily stop working. ...
This says absolutely nothing about losing the ability to dispel spells or negating the Wizard's Wizard levels. That means you can still dispel with your Wizard level, even though you cannot channel or cast other spells while Transformation of Kadon is in play.

Further, while I agree that you wouldn't typically use Transformation of Kadon to rush your Wizard headlong into a fight unprotected, I will say that Wood Elves do have the capability to send their Wizards into combat relatively shielded should you desire.

FriedTaterExplosion gave a good example of thus:
FriedTaterExplosion wrote:Transformation of Kadon: This spell gets lots of hate. It can work. I've run a mage in the second rank of my eternal guard bus. Turned the mage into a great fire dragon and due to foot print he moves to the front rank. kill a bunch of stuff with him and end the spell if needed and he pops back into the second rank.
Personally, I tend to use the Mountain Chimera more often than the Great Fire Dragon, but that's probably personal preference and depends on what your Wizard is in base contact with when you transform. Suffice to say, an average of 15 WS7 S7 Poisoned Attacks with a S7 Thunderstomp and another average of 7 auto-hits from a S4 breath weapon tends to leave a rather large gaping hole wherever they landed. That being all from the relative safety of the second rank of a unit of Eternal Guard where it doesn't really matter if the spell goes off or not, it's just icing on the cake.

As for Ioreth Starmantle's comments on Beasts being awful for Brettonians, I wouldn't really know too well for them, but for Wood Elves it's a far different story. Transformation of Kadon not working while mounted might be another reason why Brettonians don't like the lore. Not so much a problem for Wood Elves, where the majority of our characters are on foot or mounted on Great Eagles.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
User avatar
WizzyWarlock
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 339
Joined: 22 Oct 2010, 17:32

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by WizzyWarlock »

Shandrakor wrote:This is actually untrue. The Wizard is still a Wizard while transformed, and as such, still gets their dispel ability.
It's always been played that the Wizard basically stops being a Wizard, at least where I've seen it used, but you're right, it doesn't say anything about losing the ability to dispel. Nicely spotted! I'll remember that one for sure. :)
"I don't know the meaning of the word "surrender". I mean, I know it, I'm not dumb... just not in this context." - The Tick
User avatar
Mollesvinet
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1146
Joined: 09 Nov 2011, 06:13

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Mollesvinet »

@godswearhats from main article
but several comments have led me to believe that it is very useful vs armies with T3 crewed War Machines
When using magic against them, you use the toughness value of the warmachine which is usually 7. The point of flock of doom is that the amount of hits are high, so the chances to roll one or more sixes are pretty good. The warmachines you mentioned here doesn't have armor, so all it takes is 3 sixes in total. (Or two backed up by an extra from shooting for example)
chickenbane
Trusted Bowman
Trusted Bowman
Posts: 225
Joined: 29 Feb 2012, 01:49
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Skaven, Lizardmen
Location: Ireland

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by chickenbane »

popisdead wrote:In a way I like that this discussion is happening and relatively positive (if only 'I feel' vs logical expiations) and I really like that it isn't internet flaming.

But still, ?!?!?!?
If you like internet flaming, the Warhammer Forum is the place. I find most other forums are quite civil. :)
My blog Contains the occasional Wood Elf!

My Battles
User avatar
godswearhats
Elder of the Council
Posts: 1950
Joined: 19 Oct 2012, 18:20
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Wexford, IE
Contact:

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by godswearhats »

Mollesvinet wrote:
When using magic against them, you use the toughness value of the warmachine which is usually 7.
Of course! See how little I play against normal warmachines? All the ones I play against seem to have armor and or wards.

Thanks, I'll fix that reference.
Rank and Flank: A Warhammer: The Old World Podcast and Discord
User avatar
Ioreth Starmantle
Newcomer
Newcomer
Posts: 89
Joined: 20 Oct 2013, 13:22
Armies I play: Bretonnia, Vampire Counts
Location: Isle of Wight

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Ioreth Starmantle »

It's slightly off topic, but I find the politeness and civility of a forum very closely tied to its colour scheme.

This place is a haven of good people & understanding. The High Elf and Bretonnian fora are too. I find places like the Dark Elf and Vampire fora (Black with shades of black) much more hostile. Even if it's the same person posting on different sites, they will act differently and I'm certain it's the colours of the site. This also matches Warseer, which has a terrible atmosphere.

Colours really do alter people's moods. Gentle greens make coming here a relaxing and conciliatory experience.
'Learn well Nature's sole law, for it is thus: Hunt or be hunted, kill or be killed. Know too that the only reason anything ever dies is because it no longer deserves to live! Should have fought harder, should have grown stronger.'
- Ioreth Starmantle, Waywatcher Highborn
User avatar
godswearhats
Elder of the Council
Posts: 1950
Joined: 19 Oct 2012, 18:20
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Wexford, IE
Contact:

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by godswearhats »

Also, people who want to win play the evil armies.
Rank and Flank: A Warhammer: The Old World Podcast and Discord
User avatar
itsuperslug
Newcomer
Newcomer
Posts: 22
Joined: 11 Dec 2012, 13:46

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by itsuperslug »

I run a fairly character heavy, fast cav/ eagle style list so I usually go with beast magic.

Life looks good but when you remember that cav take two wounds to 'heal' it takes away one of the best spells in the lore, regrowth.

The reasons I like/ use beasts is as follows-

Wyssans Wildform
Who doesn't like +1 T & S, makes my wild riders cause my opponents to quake with fear!

Pann's Impenetrable Pelt
As I'm running a character heavy list this provides protection where wood elves wouldn't normally have it. Being able to bubble cast it to affect all my characters is very nice.

The Amber Spear
As the only high S, multi wound shooting we can currently get is a must take if you face monsters or chariot spam.

The Curse of Anraheir
My army being fast cav and flyers is all about the movement so being able to control my enemies movement just puts the icing on the cake.

The Savage Beast of Horros
Running 3 nobles in my list, being able to buff them at the right moment makes what would be an even combat into a game winning one, for not just one guy but all of them, too good a spell to say no to.
User avatar
popisdead
Former Council Member
Posts: 3096
Joined: 20 Sep 2005, 04:22
Location: Blackwater Park

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by popisdead »

chickenbane wrote:
popisdead wrote:In a way I like that this discussion is happening and relatively positive (if only 'I feel' vs logical expiations) and I really like that it isn't internet flaming.

But still, ?!?!?!?
If you like internet flaming, the Warhammer Forum is the place. I find most other forums are quite civil. :)
But you responded with a troll?
everything plog
ork plog

"Yaaay for T7 Grots!"
User avatar
godswearhats
Elder of the Council
Posts: 1950
Joined: 19 Oct 2012, 18:20
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Wexford, IE
Contact:

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by godswearhats »

Updated Lore of Life and Athel Loren having played them each some more.
Rank and Flank: A Warhammer: The Old World Podcast and Discord
irishfarmer
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 263
Joined: 27 Jun 2012, 13:02
Armies I play: WE,Ogres
Location: Middle of of the mitten, USA

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by irishfarmer »

I really liked this discussion. I am sorry that I missed it before. Thanks for the hard work on this GWH.
Track those crazy rumors and their rumor mongers!!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/po ... 48304.page
User avatar
godswearhats
Elder of the Council
Posts: 1950
Joined: 19 Oct 2012, 18:20
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Wexford, IE
Contact:

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by godswearhats »

No worries, glad it's useful!
Rank and Flank: A Warhammer: The Old World Podcast and Discord
Gwill_of_the_Woods
Bladesinger
Bladesinger
Posts: 702
Joined: 23 Aug 2013, 10:45
Armies I play: Wood Elves, AoS - Dwarf/Empire mix
Location: Swansea, Wales

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Gwill_of_the_Woods »

Personally I prefer the Lore of Life. In my circle of friends I am allowed to take Life & Beasts with a Spellsinger, I just thought I'd mention that.

Life suits my play style better. I think that a lot of the Beasts spells limits the casting to characters only. So the only spells that I particularly like are Wyssan's, Savage Beast & Amber Spear. I managed to get off Transformation once, turned into a Fire Dragon then got charged by a horde of TK skellies only to lose combat and flee. I was in a state of absolute disbelief! :lol:

I can however take a lvl 1 and take Wyssan's. Though I still rarely take both, unless 2000 plus.
In saying that I had a rather AWESOME battle where I had Orion and Savage Beast of Horros which turned him into the BRINGER OF DEATH earning his points back! :evil:

I usually take a level 4 Life-weaver and hope for Throne of Vines, Flesh to Stone, Dwellers & Shield of Thorns. I always opt out of Earthblood & Awakening the wood, for reasons already mentioned. Regrowth I am rather impartial to, it just doesn't do much for me. Or I should say Hasn't done much for me. I've never really gotten it off :(

Flesh to Stone has been a saviour SO many times. Sending my Wild Riders into a charge with T7, Treekin with T9, Treeman with T10. I love it!

I aim to give my Treekin or Treeman Shield of Thorns as they can take a round of combat. It is also amazing if you send them into a building assault as a unit of 3 get all of their attacks, plus they get the effect of the Shield.

Like mentioned throughout this topic, Dwellers is like a Nuclear Threat. Throne always gets let through, plus flesh to stone because of the psychological terror of dwellers.
Dwellers has taken the majority of a unit of HE greatswords of the board just before my T7 WR unleashed hell. It has also taken a unit of heavily armoured Empire knights off in one turn. I love it! :D Then, again as mentioned, in my experience it draws out a dispel scroll fairly early on. Hopefully irresistible force, then because I'm on the Throne, very little happens.

I have up to now fielded my Life-weaver on foot, but I am becoming interested in giving her a steed.I think I'd be a bit scared about running he too far out. I usually cast then send them off on their merry way to kill.

I never use AL. Treesinging gets cast by my Treeman ("Treeman-Billy").

I do hope that our lower level casters can take Life & Beasts in the new release. I really like a lvl1 beast wizard.
Long live the King in the Woods!!!
User avatar
godswearhats
Elder of the Council
Posts: 1950
Joined: 19 Oct 2012, 18:20
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Wexford, IE
Contact:

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by godswearhats »

Your meta is very different to mine. Nobody *ever* lets Throne of Vines through for me. And if it does go off, it gets dispelled next turn as a high priority. They don't like miscast protection because that just enables six-dicing of Dwellers, nor being able to give my guys +4 T.
Rank and Flank: A Warhammer: The Old World Podcast and Discord
User avatar
hutobega
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1097
Joined: 23 May 2010, 01:33
Armies I play: Orcs and goblins, Vampire Counts, Wood Elves.
Location: Cromwell,Connecticut

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by hutobega »

in the tournament I am in we can max throw 4 dice... but i am seeing a 2 dice throne being a nice first cast.. WORST case scenario they use dice to dispel it... then i have more dice than them to cast dwellers =P and toughness and restore wounds... I think it's still a good tactic?
How do we prove we exist? Maybe we don't...
User avatar
godswearhats
Elder of the Council
Posts: 1950
Joined: 19 Oct 2012, 18:20
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Wexford, IE
Contact:

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by godswearhats »

Yes. The big downside of Life is that Throne is not the signature spell, so in 1/10 games you won't get it.
Rank and Flank: A Warhammer: The Old World Podcast and Discord
User avatar
godswearhats
Elder of the Council
Posts: 1950
Joined: 19 Oct 2012, 18:20
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Wexford, IE
Contact:

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by godswearhats »

Added this tactica to the LEAF.

http://asrai.org/leaf/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38
Rank and Flank: A Warhammer: The Old World Podcast and Discord
chickenbane
Trusted Bowman
Trusted Bowman
Posts: 225
Joined: 29 Feb 2012, 01:49
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Skaven, Lizardmen
Location: Ireland

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by chickenbane »

Yea, Throne is not a spell that my group let through very often either. I'm really looking forward to Dark & High magic, possibly in the same game!
My blog Contains the occasional Wood Elf!

My Battles
User avatar
popisdead
Former Council Member
Posts: 3096
Joined: 20 Sep 2005, 04:22
Location: Blackwater Park

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by popisdead »

Shandrakor wrote: As for Ioreth Starmantle's comments on Beasts being awful for Brettonians,.
I guess Starmantle has never seen two Bretonnian busses with an AOE Savage Beast of Horros. Didn't seem to terrible when I saw it play.
everything plog
ork plog

"Yaaay for T7 Grots!"
User avatar
Jamesaet3
Trusted Bowman
Trusted Bowman
Posts: 206
Joined: 17 Jan 2013, 22:30

Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Jamesaet3 »

The best combo in beasts, is Wildform on your unit if eternal guard, then the curse on the enemy unit, for this example. Warrior of Chaos.

Now you have ws5 vs ws5, s4 t4 2A, and we are hitting on 4 and they are hitting on 5's. Only difference is armor save. Oh and we get extra ranks for spears.
Let them shoot first, we'll shoot best.
Locked