1000 point tornament

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

I have a 1000 point tournament over the weekend and I would like to do better than my dismal usual. The games will be played on 4' x 4' tables with 4 pieces of terrain and some scenarios.

What would you suggest that I use??

I expect to face some of he 'usual suspects'. What I 'know' about are:

Bretonnian
2 Paladins, one BSB
5 x 5 KotR
1 x 3 Pegasus Knights

VC
3 Necromancers
3 x 10 Skeletons
2 x 20 zombies
2 x 3 giant bats

Lizardmen
Scar Saurus
Skink mage
5 x 10 skinks
2 x 3 Teranadon
1 x 3 Salamanders

VC
Necromancer
2 flying Strigoi Thralls
about 50 Ghouls
2 x 20 zombies
2 x 4 giant bats.

DE
Noble
Sorceress
4 x 10 Warriors with crossbow
1 x 6 Harpies
2 RBT

Skaven
3 engineers with full kit and Storm Daemon
3 x 20 clanrats
3 x 25 Clanrat slaves
2 x 5 Jezzails

more to follow.

[Sphynx]

How I'd do it (though I'm amatueristic by your standards I think....)

Noble General on Great Eagle with Light Armour, Hail of Doom, Asyendi's Bane, Enchanted Shield
2x5 Glade Riders with Musician
3x3 WarHawk Riders
8 WayWatchers

Tactics:

• Bretonnian: KotR are nothing to worry about since they're RnF. Focus everything on the Pegasus Knights, kill them off quickly, then a simple shoot-n-run on the rest of the army. If they break a character out of the formations, those are 2ndary targets (though unlikely they'll do that)
  
  Necromancers: Quickly kill the Giant Bats. Bring in the WarHawks on the 3 Necromancers for a strong non-challengable assault on the magic. Anyone that doesn't succeed, Noble + Great Eagle comes in and attacks with a Challenge.
  
  Lizardmen: Spread out at deployment so scouts have no place to land. Total mobility, killing whole units at a time by focusing on 1 at a time.
  
  Strigoi: Thralls first, must be destroyed super quickly. Bats on followup or at the same time. Control mobility on the battlefield. Then similar attack on the Necromancer General with WarHawks and/or Noble/Eagle.
  
  Dark Elves: First targets are Harpies and RBT, although the RBT is likely their bait with crowssbowmen waiting for an assault on it. Hail of Doom on 1 asap, and strong missile focus on another to remove 2 units quickly.
  
  Skaven: Jezzails go first. Then Engineers with Hit-n-Run. If the General can be killed early, they have no BSB, 1 Hail of Doom on a unit of Slaves in the center could have a very pyramid effect of panic.
  
  That's what I'd try anyhows, success dependent on lots of other factors of course. :P

[unicorn]

My 1k army, I have some succes with it in the past:

Brachie, CoR
Standard Alter
2x10 GG; one with muso
2x8 Dryads
7 WD, muso
5 WR
Eagle

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

Hit and run will not work against either VC or Skaven, their mages will be blocked by protecting troops. I faced the skaven army before and was unable to get to their engineers at all. They use a sort of 'Slave lens' where the engineers are behind narrow gaps between the slave units so that they can see, but I cannot charge, and there is not sufficient space between the slaves in front and the rats behind for flyers to land. Meanwhile, his jezzails and 3.5 warp lightnings per turn will be blasting away my flyers and fast troops. VC spells don't need LoS much so a standard Necrobunker will be used there.

The Bretonnians depend entirely on terrain and scenario. If things work out well, they are fairly easy to beat.

The two Strigoi thralls are not to be taken lightly. They are like a pair of flying Alters.

I have no clue what High elves will use, but there will be some, and there will be a couple of Dwarf armies and I'm sure that at least one Empire player will bring a Steam tank.

I don't know if he will show up, but there is a Goblin player that sometimes used a very large all goblin army including poisoned archers.

The lack of magical defense of our suggested army, bothers me Sphynx, but I could change it to my standards. I can just field that army.

Here's a link to my travails with Ratmen

http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8232

[matthew_swifty]

Argh your community is so crazy!

Wardancers are pretty good, so are wild Riders.

Magic defence against the majority of these armies is a must have...Especially those mental VC and Skaven armies so the minimum I would suggest is Scroll caddy and BW with level 1 and CoR.

Glade Guard will be useful against the majority of the armies you will face, having a long range and good hitting capabilities.

P.S 300!! (insert cheesy 300 quote here)

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

Branchy lvl 1, CoR 140
Scroll caddy lvl 1 140

1 x 12 Glade guard 144
2 x 8 Dryads 96

1 x 7 Wardancers 126
1 x 6 Wild Riders, Warbanner 199

1 x 1 Giant Eagle 50

That's 997

This is what I used last time. I didn't get to fight wth it because of the scenario, but that's what I planned to use.

I can expect to face an Empire army with three lvl2 mages, lore chosen to maximize against the enemy faced, a Steam Tank and 400 points of troops; mostly shooty. The Steam Tank is especially nasy because it is so hard to move of an objective if it captures it. A High Elf player claims that he will win with his new 'secret', 'invincible' Asur army. Don't know what he means? You need to be a Lord to ride a Dragon right? However, people are abuzz trying to work out what he plans and how to combat it. This may result in some people changing their armies from above.

[Beithir Seun]

Just out of interest, how did that list fare for you before? It's just that that list is pretty much what I was going to suggest!!

Priority targets are Pegasus Knights, Giant Bats, Salamanders and Terradons, Harpies and Jezzails. Taking these out first out as soon as possible is a must, either because they are too manoeuvrable or too dangerous (or both) to be allowed to live long. Once these are out, try to get any lone characters (probably not many, but pounce if there are). The infantry units will be too slow to catch you so you can leave those till last. I don't like the sound of 50+ Ghouls and two flying Strigoi, so I'm thinking an Alter Noble would be just the ticket...

[matthew_swifty]

You need to be a Lord to ride a Dragon right?

Not if he is using a Dragon Mage, they take up two hero choices, dragon + mage. That is the weakest kind of dragon though.

I was going to suggest a Great Eagle as well because they are very points-effective.

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

Maybe I just need to choose ROCK, PAPER, or SCISSORS and give up on a balanced army (or take my VC, DoW, or new DE). The style of the Thanksgiving Tussle is not just a Gun Fight, Nuclear Weapons are expected.

I got blitzed. The scenario was Last Stand, so I had to defend against the 1000 points of Skaven with 500 points of WE. One of his WL was IF and once my Spellsinger was gone, it was all over.

Suggest the nastiest unbalanced 1000 point WE armies to face those above. Sphynx's is pretty good provided I can survive the magic, although I think I should looke at more Glade riders and one less unit of WHR.

[Beithir Seun]

Well, if we're not fighting fair...

I would cash in on speed, in the same way as Sphynx has done. The only thing that has the chance of really matching a Wood Elf army for speed is probably Dark Elves with multiple Dark rider units...

I'd go for something like:

Noble on Great Eagle, light armour, shield, spear, HoDA, HotH
2 x 3 Warhawk Riders
5 Wild Riders, standard, musician, Warbanner
2 x 5 Glade Riders, musician
6 Waywatchers

The only problem is that Wild Riders, being ItP, cannot flee any charges they receive...

[Sphynx]

Precisely, and hence my avoiding Wild Riders in my list.

[matthew_swifty]

Sphynx, you seem to be quite the Guerrila warrior I think Rock Paper Scissors is a good way to go because if you did an all comer list then it may totally backfire on you and get whupped. With a specialised list you have a good chance against the armies you wanted to whup but the Skaven army of warp lightning doom seems to be a major problem.

[Beithir Seun]

SPHYNX: I gathered that was your reasoning, but I feel the combat prowess of the Wild Riders would be needed. Glade Riders aren't going to make much of a dent in all those infantry units (especially zombies and skeletons which can be bolstered by magic) and I don't feel Warhawk Riders and an Eagle Noble have sufficient combat power to kill things before getting swamped by multiple units. Wild Riders, on the other hand, can quite easily break infantry units on the charge, and have sufficient combat power to make a serious dent in units of Undead, causing them to crumble a lot quicker. Hence why I included them despite the downside of ItP. They shouldn't be receiving many charges anyway

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

M-S in a 1000 point list a Dragon Mage may be very nasty indeed. There will be few units that can take it down, right?

[matthew_swifty]

Hail of Doom arrow can easily take the Mage off. 1/3 of hits randomising onto mage, large target in first place and a two wound toughness 3 no armour save mage on top. The dragon however has 5 wounds, toughness 6 and a 5+ save. The dragon is quite deadly when the mage dies. However, when playing TheoryHammer.

10.5 hits
3.5 on mage
7 on dragon
Roughly 2 and a bit wounds on mage...dead mage.
Roughly 1 wound on dragon probably unsaved.

Leaving it on 5 wounds and a monster reaction test.

It gets pretty hard to take down with it's toughness six but alter noble and wild riders could get the job done if it become frenzied and you flee trap it.

Alter noble=invaluable in this case.

If the High Elf player is up to scratch, he will realise that the dragon mage isn't the best of choices. Especially as it takes up 2 hero choices and a massive proportion of his army points value.

The dragon mage is nasty in the way that it casts like a second generation slann but at a level 2 level.

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

OK guys, thanks for the help. Here's what I am thinking of.

Noble, great eagle, light armour, spear, shield, HoDA:- 161
2 x 12 Glade Guard:- 288
2 x 5 Glade Riders, mus:- 258
2 x 3 Warhawk Riders:- 240
Great Eagle:- 50

total 997 points.

There are reasons for this build which I will explain so that you can help me improve the list.

Waywatchers and scouts are out. With four randomly selected and placed pieces of terrain and non-pitched battle scenarios, there is too much chance that there will be nowhere to deploy them and even if I do get the terrain, my lack of magic defense means that they will be the target of every short range attack and magic missile my opponents have, if they get the first turn. All of this adds up to scout and waywatchers merely being expensive Glade Guard in at least half of all battles. In battles with objectives, we will not be able to deploy any unit within 12" of the objective, to prevent the first person to move grabbing the objective. This will also limit the ability to deploy these units.

I may have a huge head, but I think that many of my opponents are not especially good players. They are all ListHammer experts, but they tend to rely too much on powerful builds rather than sound tactics. I want the Glade Guard, with their longbows, to outshoot many of the static armies and make it hard for a first turn rush to work. Since I will not have to face Thorek, I can stand and fire from long range and may force some armies to come for me. They also provide a slow element of r-n-f to act as a target for my opponents and they can occupy any buildings in my deployment area as a fire-base. By my deployment, I think I can control the enemy attack lanes and thus my own counter-assaults to envelop the enemy's flank(s).

The rest of the army is the mobile, hit-and-run, shooty bits that will confuse, confound, and conquer the enemy.

If the WHR and GE make it to the Laurelornim list (and I doubt it), this is a good Shadow Elf build, and plays like I think the Shadow Elves should play (Sorry, Sphynx, I know we see things differently and I'm not taking a poke at you)

[Beithir Seun]

Well, now that you've explained things, your list seems to fit the bill. You'll have to weather the possible magic storm but, if you survive, the list should be able to dish out some damage. For the Glade Guard at least (even more so than before) the biggest threat will be the fast stuff, so you will have to finish these off even more quickly but your fast elements still fit with what has been suggested by Sphynx and myself and will prove useful against those slow infantry units in particular.

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

I was going to have to weather the magic storm anyway. I have mage hunters and warmachine hunters galore. Even if playing 'normal' terrain rules, I still would argue that Waywatchers and scouts are too vulnerable to magic with my lack of mages. Would you agree even in those circumstances?

Attacking down the throat of those Glade Guard may not be easy since I can move and fire and I have good march blockers. Any two typical fast movers will not make it. Even the Strigoi thralls are at risk, especially if I can get to short range. 16 x S4 hits is not to be sneezed at.

[Hyarion]

AMA, I'd agree that if you go in with this list, your WW will probably die rather quickly to magic spells.

I think it's a good list, just remember that you may not be able to defend your Glade Guard so if something does survive to threaten them cut your losses. With that in mind, I think the Glade Guard are a great investment in this list and think they should stay.

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

I know its a bit weird, but is it worth taking a great weapon in case my Noble gets his eagle shot out from under him?

[matthew_swifty]

If you have the points then sure you could. However, he won't be able to use a shield whilst in combat and with the large frontage of the base, there could be some enemies to attack back and the lack of a shield may hurt you.

If the eagle is shot out from under him, he will only have 3 str 6 attacks. On average this will not kill enough enemies to stop return attacks. Hand weapon and shield combo would probably work better in those circumstances and the ability to use the shield when flying into combat with the spear on the eagle is more useful I think.

[Sphynx]

OK guys, thanks for the help. Here's what I am thinking of.

Noble, great eagle, light armour, spear, shield, HoDA:- 161
2 x 12 Glade Guard:- 288
2 x 5 Glade Riders, mus:- 258
2 x 3 Warhawk Riders:- 240
Great Eagle:- 50

total 997 points.
If the WHR and GE make it to the Laurelornim list (and I doubt it), this is a good Shadow Elf build, and plays like I think the Shadow Elves should play (Sorry, Sphynx, I know we see things differently and I'm not taking a poke at you)

I agree actually, it's IS a good Shadow Elves build. However, I think you should reconsider WayWatchers. Using a Hail of Doom to take out a Dragon Mage seems a bit over-kill. WayWatchers with their Lethal Shot prove invaluable in small army builds. But, your call of course. There's no way I'd have a list at a thousand or less without them, even if it meant sacrificing my beloved Warhawk Riders.

[Guardian]

You should also consider a sniper noble, she would be able to deal with all those casters fairly easily.

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

Uunderstand your position Sphynx, but I cannot see the Waywatchers surviving the first turn with the little magic defense I have, unless I choose not to use their special deployment rules. In fact, I cannot understand how your Waywatchers manage to survive given your limited magic defense. Although, if you know who will get first turn before you place them, that would make a big difference. I do not have that luxury. At 24 points a model, they will be a prime target for all magic missiles and any other auto-hit weapon. A Dragon Mage costs a lot more than HoDA and is a significant amount of magical attacks I cannot defend against easily. Seems like a great investment to me.

I'm not sure that the Sniper noble can get more than one character before the return fire gets him. I don't think I can expect to get two wounds each turn.

[Sphynx]

Probably because they deploy either out of range or within my own deployment zone, ignoring their Scout ability in order to get those shots first. Magic is rarely an issue for them in the first turn, and actually, I rarely get to go first, as I like taking my time deploying and have such a high mobility.