Wardancers: What US, and are they good enough on their own?
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- Trusted Bowman
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Wardancers: What US, and are they good enough on their own?
I have been here for a litle while, and I have a 1000p of troops, but havent had the time to play a game with WE yet, or asemble more than a few models...
I'm wondering about how to use my Wardancers.
7 seems to be the size to take...
7 seems sort of fragile though...
Do theese guys need a noble? I think a noble with 7 wardancers might attract some unwanted attention
I'm wondering about how to use my Wardancers.
7 seems to be the size to take...
7 seems sort of fragile though...
Do theese guys need a noble? I think a noble with 7 wardancers might attract some unwanted attention
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- Bladesinger
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- Horsemaster
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Yes they do seem a wee bit fragile but if you screen them before getting into CC they should be fine.
I always play a unit of 7 and I've been the unluckiest sod when it comes to dice rolls. My WD have mostly failed to dish out enough damage and have been run down after failing their break tests time and time again. (lots of 5's and 6's )
But I'm not giving up hope.
With regards to Nobles leading them -> I haven't used them yet but my new army list has a WD Highborn leading 1 of my 2 troupes.
The feedback I have received though would suggest that 2 WD Nobles to lead the 2 troupes would be more viable and flexible.
I'm still going to try out the WD Highborn though -> it seems to work for Nagathi.
I always play a unit of 7 and I've been the unluckiest sod when it comes to dice rolls. My WD have mostly failed to dish out enough damage and have been run down after failing their break tests time and time again. (lots of 5's and 6's )
But I'm not giving up hope.
With regards to Nobles leading them -> I haven't used them yet but my new army list has a WD Highborn leading 1 of my 2 troupes.
The feedback I have received though would suggest that 2 WD Nobles to lead the 2 troupes would be more viable and flexible.
I'm still going to try out the WD Highborn though -> it seems to work for Nagathi.
The main problem with fewer then, say, 9 or so Wardancers is that you waste a lot of attack potential against most targets if you have fewer then 6-7 models left (depends on wether you charge a front or a flank). Against "big" units (25mm), it becomes even worse. So even if by some miracle your Wardancers arrive in the first battle unscathed, chances are good that they lose one or two models to retaliation strikes. If your initial troupe was just 7 models strong, that means you are too weak to take on any future regiments as the main (or single) attacking force.
And since realistically, they get shot at at least once by at least one ranged unit, it is even more crucial to have 2-3 "spare wounds". If you take Wardancers, imho you should take about 9.
And since realistically, they get shot at at least once by at least one ranged unit, it is even more crucial to have 2-3 "spare wounds". If you take Wardancers, imho you should take about 9.
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- Horsemaster
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I agree with Stormfox.
I've been testing 7-8 and yes, that's the ideal size for the first charge, but you will loose 1-2 from attacks back (of course depending of what you fight) or against magic/shooting etc.
I'm leaning towards a unit of 10. Just to be able to handle the 2-3 first casaulties and still be able to be a big threat!
The only good reason to have the champion is if there are any other character in the unit, otherwise it's not really worth it and since my BSB is with the Eternal Guards, mine will be without the champ. They might have a musician if I got the points left for it, just a small bonus if I afford it.
I've been testing 7-8 and yes, that's the ideal size for the first charge, but you will loose 1-2 from attacks back (of course depending of what you fight) or against magic/shooting etc.
I'm leaning towards a unit of 10. Just to be able to handle the 2-3 first casaulties and still be able to be a big threat!
The only good reason to have the champion is if there are any other character in the unit, otherwise it's not really worth it and since my BSB is with the Eternal Guards, mine will be without the champ. They might have a musician if I got the points left for it, just a small bonus if I afford it.
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- Bladesinger
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- Horsemaster
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- Naggie
- King of the Woods
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I use 7 with full command and a highborn as my main unit. They seldome get any attention (thanks to smart hiding, showing better targets, and magic resistance). I will now also field a unit of 7 dancers without anything. In my 1k games such a unit has prevailed many times (last game they were charged by a chariot and managed to win that round by 4 points - not taaking a single wound themselves).
1. Seven Dancers is a well balanced number in terms of cost vs efficiancy
2. Yes, they can do much on their own and don't need a Noble/Highborn
3. A Noble/Highborn will enchance them, but can also draw attention to them. Be careful
Nagathi
The Spirit Keeper
1. Seven Dancers is a well balanced number in terms of cost vs efficiancy
2. Yes, they can do much on their own and don't need a Noble/Highborn
3. A Noble/Highborn will enchance them, but can also draw attention to them. Be careful
Nagathi
The Spirit Keeper
Mostly I used them in a unit of 7 (+mus), and they ALWAYS did their job. In my opinion they are a must in any wood elfs army, because they're fast, skirmishing, and they can strike first, wich combined with their ws, st if they charge, and all other beautiful things they have makes them one of the deadliest elven units in general
Would you do it with me, heal the scars and change the stars....
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- Trusted Bowman
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Yeah, I have loved the wardancers since the summer of 98, so I just have to include them when I finaly start WE ^_^
Why aren't a champoin worth it?
A champion is only one attack from a noble... One less wound offcourse, but a lot cheaper...
It's tempting to take a alter highborn with BoL and those arrows to take out the heavy cav and other mobile units, but then I can't afford a dancer noble I think...
Why aren't a champoin worth it?
A champion is only one attack from a noble... One less wound offcourse, but a lot cheaper...
It's tempting to take a alter highborn with BoL and those arrows to take out the heavy cav and other mobile units, but then I can't afford a dancer noble I think...
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- Trusted Bowman
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I would like to make sure I understand how WDs work. Let's assume I have 7 WD (nothing special) hitting a 5-wide unit of humans. And I use the Storm of Blades on the first round. So I have seven models, A=1, +1 attack due to Wardancer Weapons and +1 attack for the dance. This is 21 WS6, Str 4 attacks. which statistically would be 11.67 hits, probably 8 wounds, which (assume that their armor save is 6+) usually means 7 kills. So they are not going to have any retaliation strikes. Granting +1 CR for a banner, +1 for more meat and (assume they were a three-rank unir) +1 for ranks means their break test is with a net -4 modifier, with a 92% chance they will break, too. And as far as getting them to the battle unscathed, assuming that by the time the WD have completed their move to contact well-screened by dryads (assuming that the bad guys' war machines are chopped up by the alter noble and/or waywatchers) one can expect that the WD will go through the bad guys like a hot knife through butter.
Of course, no plan survives the first contact with the enemy. But is this not the usual concept of the operations when using the WD to make the bad guys realize that our forest is not a good place to go for a picnic?
Of course, no plan survives the first contact with the enemy. But is this not the usual concept of the operations when using the WD to make the bad guys realize that our forest is not a good place to go for a picnic?
It's not a choice.
It's a nurgling.
It's a nurgling.
- Naggie
- King of the Woods
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If the unit had 4 ranks when the combat phase started, they will get +3 for their 3 extra ranks, not just +1.cybersharque wrote:I would like to make sure I understand how WDs work. Let's assume I have 7 WD (nothing special) hitting a 5-wide unit of humans. And I use the Storm of Blades on the first round. So I have seven models, A=1, +1 attack due to Wardancer Weapons and +1 attack for the dance. This is 21 WS6, Str 4 attacks. which statistically would be 11.67 hits, probably 8 wounds, which (assume that their armor save is 6+) usually means 7 kills. So they are not going to have any retaliation strikes. Granting +1 CR for a banner, +1 for more meat and (assume they were a three-rank unir) +1 for ranks means their break test is with a net -4 modifier, with a 92% chance they will break, too.
That is, assuming you don't get out-manouevred by enemy knights. Wardancers charged by knights is a tricksy buisness. You'd probably chose 4+ ward in the first round, but trying to cut through their armour with mere strength 3 is not like a hot knife through butter.And as far as getting them to the battle unscathed, assuming that by the time the WD have completed their move to contact well-screened by dryads (assuming that the bad guys' war machines are chopped up by the alter noble and/or waywatchers) one can expect that the WD will go through the bad guys like a hot knife through butter.
Of course, no plan survives the first contact with the enemy. But is this not the usual concept of the operations when using the WD to make the bad guys realize that our forest is not a good place to go for a picnic?
Nagathi
The Spirit Keeper
A more realistic approach to gauging the WD vs. a typical light-medium infantry regiment would be:
You get your 7 Wardancers attacking. Each has 3 Attacks, of which 2 will hit on average. Thats 14 Hits with S4.
Against T3 light infantry (Empire, HE, DE, Skaven, beefed up Gobbos, Marauders, etc), which is the most common, that results in 9 hits if you roll slightly below average.
Now it gets tricky: Do they have (and have chosen to use) spears?
If so, their AS is usually 5+, which gets reduced to 6+, which means that your assessment of roughly 7 kills is correct. The problem is, then their unit champ (which you would have had to specifically target with attacks to kill him, which is usually impractical and wastes a lot of attacks if you want to make sure you get him) and two others will strike back since they got spears. Those 4 attacks will cause 2 hits and 1 wound, which will most likely be a casualty.
They use HW and Shield?
Then they got a 4+ AS in melee, which means they save 3 out of your 9 wounds and then their champion strikes back with a chance of about 40% to kill one WD. Since you should always assume a slightly below average combat outcome, let's assume he kills one.
So either way, you will most likely lose one model and kill either 6 or 7 of their guys. Since they will most likely get +4 static CR (possibly only +3 if they lost a model from the last rank sometime before combat startet), you will win the combat, but barely.
That was light infantry with T3, which is the most common type.
Gobbos without armor or Skeletons are easier.
Anything else is much tougher and results in a very close outcome, usually. Dwarves or Chaos Warriors in particular are very hard nuts to crack, as are some specialized units like HE Spearmen (they strike back with 3 Ranks, which hurts alot since you only got T3 and no practical saves).
In short, while Wardancers are one of the hardest hitting units in the game casualty-wise, they are still weakly armored skirmishers with S3 and T3 in their base profile, which means they have to pick their targets wisely if they are alone. Because of that, its critical that you at least have the full number of models that could possibly attack, which is 7.
You get your 7 Wardancers attacking. Each has 3 Attacks, of which 2 will hit on average. Thats 14 Hits with S4.
Against T3 light infantry (Empire, HE, DE, Skaven, beefed up Gobbos, Marauders, etc), which is the most common, that results in 9 hits if you roll slightly below average.
Now it gets tricky: Do they have (and have chosen to use) spears?
If so, their AS is usually 5+, which gets reduced to 6+, which means that your assessment of roughly 7 kills is correct. The problem is, then their unit champ (which you would have had to specifically target with attacks to kill him, which is usually impractical and wastes a lot of attacks if you want to make sure you get him) and two others will strike back since they got spears. Those 4 attacks will cause 2 hits and 1 wound, which will most likely be a casualty.
They use HW and Shield?
Then they got a 4+ AS in melee, which means they save 3 out of your 9 wounds and then their champion strikes back with a chance of about 40% to kill one WD. Since you should always assume a slightly below average combat outcome, let's assume he kills one.
So either way, you will most likely lose one model and kill either 6 or 7 of their guys. Since they will most likely get +4 static CR (possibly only +3 if they lost a model from the last rank sometime before combat startet), you will win the combat, but barely.
That was light infantry with T3, which is the most common type.
Gobbos without armor or Skeletons are easier.
Anything else is much tougher and results in a very close outcome, usually. Dwarves or Chaos Warriors in particular are very hard nuts to crack, as are some specialized units like HE Spearmen (they strike back with 3 Ranks, which hurts alot since you only got T3 and no practical saves).
In short, while Wardancers are one of the hardest hitting units in the game casualty-wise, they are still weakly armored skirmishers with S3 and T3 in their base profile, which means they have to pick their targets wisely if they are alone. Because of that, its critical that you at least have the full number of models that could possibly attack, which is 7.
- FriedTaterExplosion
- Bladesinger
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But stick a highborn with blades of loec into that unit of wardancers and that typical toughness 3 infantry unit will be hurting.
Combination charges are the best. WD are one of the few shirmishers that can win charging ranked infantry head on.
I had a recent 7th edition game against WE (I was playing dwarfs.) His troupe of 7 WD plus noble w/ blade of loec charged a unit of 25 dwarf warrriors head on. We were playing with the new special terrain rules and the special terrain piece we put down allowed the controlling army to have hatred. So he had wardancers with hatred! Imagine 19 regular WD WD attacks and 5 noble attacks- with the ability to reroll missed hits!
My warriors lost by four or five and broke.
Combination charges are the best. WD are one of the few shirmishers that can win charging ranked infantry head on.
I had a recent 7th edition game against WE (I was playing dwarfs.) His troupe of 7 WD plus noble w/ blade of loec charged a unit of 25 dwarf warrriors head on. We were playing with the new special terrain rules and the special terrain piece we put down allowed the controlling army to have hatred. So he had wardancers with hatred! Imagine 19 regular WD WD attacks and 5 noble attacks- with the ability to reroll missed hits!
My warriors lost by four or five and broke.
... I take champion also
O and, you don't just charge opponent's in front, it's better to manouvre them and charge them into flank, you can do it. Wardancers are killing machines, but they still are elves, wich mean they have thoughnes 3, and with any luck of your opponent, you can lose one of theese precious guys (they have ward save wich is 6, but still a big number to roll).
Second, if you charge in front, or being charged, ask for a challenge. I remeber this one time I played against Chaos-Khorne-only-cavalary army. I lost, because I was newbie then, but I remember whiping clean unit of chosen knights and hero on jugernaught with wardancers, not to mention 40 skeletons, when I charged them to flank, and dragon ogres, giants....
Wardancers are great, but you need to know how to use them. Don't charge in front, always in flank or back. ALWAYS
O and, you don't just charge opponent's in front, it's better to manouvre them and charge them into flank, you can do it. Wardancers are killing machines, but they still are elves, wich mean they have thoughnes 3, and with any luck of your opponent, you can lose one of theese precious guys (they have ward save wich is 6, but still a big number to roll).
Second, if you charge in front, or being charged, ask for a challenge. I remeber this one time I played against Chaos-Khorne-only-cavalary army. I lost, because I was newbie then, but I remember whiping clean unit of chosen knights and hero on jugernaught with wardancers, not to mention 40 skeletons, when I charged them to flank, and dragon ogres, giants....
Wardancers are great, but you need to know how to use them. Don't charge in front, always in flank or back. ALWAYS
Would you do it with me, heal the scars and change the stars....
- Tethlis
- Shadow Sentinel
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Erenion, there isn't much of a disadvantage to charging the front as opposed to flank or rear. Yes, you receive a nice +1 bonus for flank, but that's about it. The only additional bonus is that you frequently avoid combat characters and champions, who are in the unit front. However, I wouldn't be charging Wardancers in on their own anyway, except for the most humble opponent. Wild/Glade Riders in the flank or rear, Wardancers anywhere else and there isn't much that can resist that that isn't stubborn or unbreakable.
True, but still, I crash my wardancers almost always in flank or rear, because of those things you mentioned, but also because the dice is a tricky thing. You don't always have to kill a lot of people, and if you crash in flank, of let's say 20 empire greatswords or teutogen guards, and you kill 3 or 4... Only one, or none can strike back.
Would you do it with me, heal the scars and change the stars....
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- Horsemaster
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I don't understand your point.Erenion wrote:True, but still, I crash my wardancers almost always in flank or rear, because of those things you mentioned, but also because the dice is a tricky thing. You don't always have to kill a lot of people, and if you crash in flank, of let's say 20 empire greatswords or teutogen guards, and you kill 3 or 4... Only one, or none can strike back.
It's not that different to charge front or side for the Wardancers, the only thing that's certain is that they shouldn't go for 20 Greatswords on their own, flank or not.
If it's something that should flank, that would be Glade Riders or Wild Riders.
Well... my style of playing is a little different, I try to use the thing that the wood elfs are best at (shooting and movement) to the maximum, and glade riders are a bit expensive for me, both in points and money, so I use mostly infantry, with exception of warhawk riders.
Would you do it with me, heal the scars and change the stars....
To say you can always charge into a flank with just 1" more movement (and of course the bonus of being able to move as single models and not lose movement by wheeling and turning) is pretty far-fetched. As soon as you are close enough to a unit to be able to move into a side arc with 5" movement, the opponent just has to wheel or turn a bit to restore his LOS to you and deny your flanking maneuver. Only inexperienced opponents will simply let you stay in their flanks.