2 units of Waywatchers? Some questions....

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YourMumRang
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2 units of Waywatchers? Some questions....

Post by YourMumRang »

Hey all. I like Waywatchers. So much so I've been considering using 2 units of 6 in my lists. But I'm not sure about this.

What units should be taken in the army to compliment them?

How much would I need to worry about magic defense?

What enemies will they excel against?
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Post by Daith11 »

well when it comes to magic i think your going to need alot of defense because any player that plays with even a little bit of magic is going to take one look at these guys and start blastin them to pieces. enemys that they will excel against will be large blocks of infantry as they are able to weave inbetween them to block marches and set off the beautiful lethal shots. I love taking waywatchers as well and they are in just about every list that i make alot of people dont like them because of alot of reasons like they have no defence or the lethal shot rule isnt that good so they arent worth they're points. but i think that the lethal shot rule isnt the main thing about the waywatchers its the "super scouting" abilities that they have that make their point cost so high (i accually dont think the cost is that high but yeah) the only problem that I have been having with waywatchers is that I havent figured out what units to compliment them with yet....but i will and when I do HAHAHAHH :P
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Post by Valandil Faelivrin »

2 units of Waywatchers? IHateColdWeather is going to have a fit!

If your going to take them you'd best have the type of magic defense that says "you will not cast a single fireball unless I permit it." A spellweaver with the wand of wytch elm would be a good start. Then add a BW with the cluster and your pretty set. Maybe add another level 2 to up your offensive magic power.
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Post by GobbladasSquig »

Valandil Faelivrin wrote:If your going to take them you'd best have the type of magic defense that says "you will not cast a single fireball unless I permit it." A spellweaver with the wand of wytch elm would be a good start. Then add a BW with the cluster and your pretty set. Maybe add another level 2 to up your offensive magic power.
On the other hand, your waywatchers are effective magehunters. I believe that something along the lines of 4 DD and a scroll or two should be sufficient magic defence for an army that includes waywatchers. All you have to do is dispel those few crucial first turn magic missiles, and you can start whittling down your opponent's magic phase. Also, as in the 7th edition pretty much all damage causing spells require LOS, you might be able to keep your waywatchers safe by just moving them. If a mage leaves his unit to gain LOS, he is free game. Just dispel the spell and kill him.

In addition, if your waywatchers are keeping your opponent's shooting and magic phases busy, your points would be best spent elsewhere than in magic defence upgrading characters. Buy wild riders, warhawk riders etc. that can sweep down the flanks and gain advantage from the distraction caused by the waywatchers. It would really be the stupidest thing to buy hordes of slow models, as they won't be able to put pressure on your opponent at the same time as the waywatchers do their tricks.
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Post by NightMoor »

I have done it before - I've taken two groups of 7 or 8 on three occasions and two groups of 10 (!) twice. They definitely can be effective, more so than I gave them credit for before. Twice was in the new 7th edition rules - they definitely gain a LOT from the new character targeting rules in 7th.

Everyone above is absolutely right - do not even dare taking two groups of Waywatchers without *massive* anti-magic. I'm talking Level 3 with 3xScrolls, + 2 more mages (one probably a BWraith lvl1 wit Cluster). Magic just slaughters these guys like a joke (no armor, toughness 3? 24pts each? Sign the bad mage up!). Also even if they stay alive, the most frustrating spell in the world will be that Dark Magic spell that prevents an entire unit from shooting if they take even a single wound from it. Stop that magic!

7 WWs one time managed to put 7 hits onto Morathi+mount. Three wounds on the Pegasus killed it, and two Killing Blows finished off Morathi. Satisfying!
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Post by ihatecoldweather »

Valandil Faelivrin wrote:2 units of Waywatchers? IHateColdWeather is going to have a fit!
2 Waywatcher units! :mad: *has insane fit*

I'd personally reccomend 0 myself (even though i have quite a few of the models).

If you want to play a double WW list then i reccomend using the pre-AB WE army book. Atleast those guys were useful and 2 units would be alright.

Sure they may have not had killing blow (which seems to be the only thing the new WW are good for now) but they were 20 points each had armour piercing arrows and more importantly, they had 4" sight range through woods.

How is this useful? Well it means that they could be deployed in a woods where they could see the enemy but not be seen. This means that WW could charge mages, artillery, etc. on the first turn with their 2 attacks each without being shot at to bits first (like they do now, not to mention they are more expensive). And even if the field didn't have a woods nearby you could just place the waywatchers in a free wood, treesing them forward (treesing was D6+1 inches back then instead of D3+1 inches btw) they could shoot at the enemy for a turn and then charge them without being shot at to bits on the second turn.

Pre-WE army book waywatchers were the ultimate sabotage machine, the only thing in the game (that i could recall) that could charge on the first turn. They may have sucked at shooting but they had a tactical role of sabotage that was much more important. They were the bane of my opponents especially gunline players. Unfourtunatly, the new army book appealed to the newer players and made WW a unit of overpriced super killy archers of death with an ability called killing blow/lethal shot to make them sound cool.

That's the problem with the new 24 point WW, they lack the 4" sight range through woods ability. This means that the waywatcher models waste their points on the two hand weapons, their super scouting abilities and their -1 to hit modifier with little to no benefit. This is because in order to make use of these abilities the waywatchers would have to be used as a sabotage unit. The problem is that the moment waywatchers come out of hiding to prepare a charge they get blown to bits. And it doesn't matter how many -1 to hit modifiers that WW have, the amount of auto hit things in WHF is ridiculous (organ guns, hellblasters, grapeshots, anvils of doom, magic, etc.). Without the ability to sabotage, waywatchers are just overpriced scouts with killing blow arrows at short range.

I was always sceptical of GW's idea of giving waywatchers killing blow arrows when i first heard the rumour. If GW gave WW killing blow arrows that would warrent a price increase by as much as 4 points (and they did go up by 4 points cause GW like the number 120 so much), and if they went up in price they would become much more fragile and vulnerable to damage and less valuable as sabotage units. And you can imagine my shock when i realised that GW both raised their price and took away their sight range through forest ability, thus nerfing any sabotage ability the WW had.

This would mean that they would go from one of the best units at taking out things such as warmachines to one of the worst because gunline armies have autohit stuff (hellblasters and organ guns) that will annialate the WW unit before they can do anything. Imo, it's seriously unfluffy that superscouts are inneffective against gunlines.

When i first saw the new AB and saw the waywatcher rules i was imediatly wondering how i could compensate for the lost sabotage ability in my WE army, my first solution was to just take more eagles, but then i realised that wouldn't suffice cause GW was stupid enough not to make eagles 2 per rare. My second solution would be to get some offensive magic to compensate but that was clearly not an option when i realised that spellsingers went up 20 points, gained no ability, had no lore selection and were forced to take the worst lore in the world, athel loren.

My third solution would be just to take some more long range archery to counter the enemy's ranged and magical abilities, but archers lost their no long range penalty rule so that was no longer an option. Taking scouts instead of WW was a possibility but at 17 points it's just not worth it (i'm still really puzzled why they got a point increase, i mean they were rarely used before the AB, though mostly because dryads and eagles took priority over special slots). Anyway, My final solution was to take some warhawks (which i was pretty optimistic at the time because they couldn't have been worse than thier previous incarnation and they seemed pretty durable at the time) and take members of the newly emerging alter kindred to take advantage of the targetting restrictions, screen them with dryads and use them. However, these have now both been recently been nerfed with 7th edition rules due to the abolishment of targetting restrictions and no more -1 to hit modifier for warhawk riders and peg knights. So now i have no idea what to do against gunline armies, WE now have effectively 0 sabotage ability remaining. I guess my only option is to hide the entire game and shoot them from long range.

:P Anyway, sorry about the long rant about old WW rules, i just miss them too much. I always prefered the tactical feel of the chronicles WE rather than the new all out CC WEs. It's just impossible to field an effective ambush list with the new rules. These armies have been rejected in favour of CC oriented armies based around dryads, fast cavalry and wardancers. On the bright side, atleast the WE army is more competitive than it used to be and the double treeman tactic is just so effective that it has reached the power gaming status of uber magic armies, gunline armies and all cav bret armies.
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Re: 2 units of Waywatchers? Some questions....

Post by popisdead »

Um,... well you're going to kill on avg 2 heavy cav per turn for at best 3 turns, for nearly 300 pts. I just can't see this being useful. my one unit of 6 kills maybe 4 a game and I shoot amazing well. Because by turn 2 they are charged or dead or in combat.

If you want to take two units of them, take a couple units of Wardancers to make up for the lack of other rare choices.

Well anything that does 2D6 S4 will nerf them. However your opponent will know throwing 20 goblins will win CR,...

They excel against a single Heavy Cav unit for the game, or maybe goblin or human warmachines, not Dwarfs, and when it comes down to it, S3 bows only do so much.
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Post by SilentSniper »

I am a card carrying member of the Waywatcher fan club, but even still i only use one unit. I used to deploy a WW Highborn but now use a WW noble with HoDA.

At 24 points I don't think they justify two units, i use 1 unit of 10 and back them with 2 scout units.

But yeah, they are magic-targets so load up with the anti-magic protection.
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Post by Acorn »

@ ihatecoldweather
You think that WE characters are overpriced and half the WE units are crap. Why the f*** don't you just start another army and leave the treehuggers to those of us who actually likes them?
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Post by - Human »

Everyone knows WW are a bit pricey, but I don't see that as the main problem for taking 2 units. They can be used effectively.

The problem, IMO, is that it cancels out your other rare slot. For some armies, that's not a big deal - but for Asrai, you guys have some really amazing choices that are very crucial to the army. Treemen and eagles? It's do-able, but I'd always try to have them in my army if I could.

But if you're cool going without treeman or eagle, then all the power to you. WW are super cool. :ph43r: ;)
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Post by Althathir »

"What units should be taken in the army to compliment them"

I would go with Wild riders, they work well together because the waywatchers force a quick reaction, and that takes some pressure off of the wild riders. If they target the Wild Riders then the waywatchers should get enough time to do some damage.

I would also consider warhawk riders because they are fast, and can be used in ways similiar to an eagle

"How much would I need to worry about magic defense? "

I would stick with the regular amount, with the new rules most armies are going to join thier mages to infanty so the waywatchers aren't going to be able to get to them. Waywatchers really shouldn't ever shoot at infantry unless they don't have another target, try to cav. and warmachines with them.

"What enemies will they excel against?"

They tend to well againist cav. armies, and with lore of life toned down I think they will work well againist Bretts (before lore of life really hurt thier chances of doing anything againist them). I've also had a lot of success againist lizard men with mine.



As for whether or not you should take 2 squads, if you like them go for it. It really is that simple, the point of the game is to have fun :lol: .
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Post by Beithir Seun »

i always take two units of 6 cos they're great!! they earn back their points so quickly (at least when i use them...) in one battle between them they took out 3 skink priests, a scar veteran (or oldblood can't remember) and carnosaur, and about 15-20 skinks! thats around 500-700 points on its own

my waywatchers never fail to perform and its more than satisfactory seeing the look on an opponents face when their 500 point killing machine is taken out by a measly elf with a pretty bow hiding up a tree...
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Post by popisdead »

Beithir Seun wrote:...and carnosaur,
I'm impressed you killed a carnosaur with S3 bows, 'as well' as all the other enemy units and characters in one game.

My point stands about the alter highborn (who can also accomplish this goal standing in your deployment zone out of the 24" MM range.

And as for rare choices, a treeman and a great eagle will tactially present better options than two units of 6 Waywatchers.
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Post by Prince of Arnheim »

I will assume this is for a 2k army idea.

I have played around iwth a lot of lists that have 2 units of Waywatchers and just don't thin it works. They take up too many points. I think the most I ever would want is a unit of 7.

I tend to take Glade Guard,Waywatchers and Scouts if I field ANY of those...so I take all 3 if I want to include one of them.

I use the Scouts to get right into the enemies deployment zone so the Waywatchers can sit backa bit from them and start sniping. The GG will oversee all of this and rain down arrows on anything trying to chrage the WW.

If I was to add another WW units...I would probably drop those scouts for sure. You don't really need more than 2 scouting/harassment units.

You have to really look at your army as a whole and how it is going to function and support itself.

WW can be quite fragile and exposed....so too many can work against your other components of Speed,MAgic and Close Combat which are certainly important for the WE's in this new 7th edition.
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Post by Beithir Seun »

popisdead wrote:
I'm impressed you killed a carnosaur with S3 bows, 'as well' as all the other enemy units and characters in one game.

My point stands about the alter highborn (who can also accomplish this goal standing in your deployment zone out of the 24" MM range.

And as for rare choices, a treeman and a great eagle will tactially present better options than two units of 6 Waywatchers.
well i was quite lucky to kill the carnosaur....

i agree with your points about treeman and great eagle giving better tactical options but i still think i'd take a unit of waywatchers over an eagle in some cases. if i had a spare rare slot then i'd consider an eagle but otherwise it'd be waywatchers
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Post by Aeryn »

keep th one unit of waywatchers, you don't need more than that.
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Post by asrai77 »

It would seem that two units of Waywatchers would be excessive in most cases. I peronsally like having a treeman in my army. However, two units could be of extreme use if you are playing an army list like the one I am working on. I have no fast cav, so I use scouts and waywatchers as my early threat/pressure units. This means that I have two units already at the other end of the board on turn one, one of which that can lethal shot knights right out of their saddles.

So, I could see a list like this getting a lot of use out of two units of waywatchers A) because they provide tons of annoyance on turn one, B) because they are a threat to those heavily armored uber units, and C) because they will effectively take the focus off the rest of your army so that they can get to your opponent in one relatively whole piece.

One major problem is what you mentioned. Magic. Versus shooting, if you have the waywatchers in a wood, they are automatically -3 to hit (forest, skirmish, forest stalker rule), then consider moving and range penalties and they are nigh unhittable. Same goes for combat, keep them in a wood and not much will be able to charge them. Magic however, is another kind of animal. Auto hitting means instant death for waywatchers. Any good magic missle that gets off will decimate these guys. No armor or ward save means that they will die quickly. So, you will need magic defense to keep them alive. But, like I said, if your opponent is wasting all of his/her magic on them, the rest of your army would arrive magically unharmed.

My recommendation is to do one of two things. Create one unit of waywatchers that is bigger (i.e. 6-8). This gives increased shots, survivability in numbers for purposes of psychology, and the numbers you are wanting with two units. Recommendation two is my favorite. Couple one unit of waywatchers with a unit of scouts, maybe even with a banner of zenith. This will mean a lot of marchblocking, sniping, mage/war machine hunting, and overall annoyance while keeping the extra rare slot open and also keep the points costs down on squishy scout units. That is my two cents.
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