Against High Elves

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Funky Fastfingers
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Against High Elves

Post by Funky Fastfingers »

Im going to play a 3.999 point battle against high elves soon and I cant decide what to take. The problem is that high elves are so versatile. My opponent might use a dragon rider. He might go shooty (6 RBT's + ~30 archers + shadow warriors) or he might use lots of cavalry (though he rarely does that).

At first I wanted to use a dragon rider and 1-2 treemen to be able to cope with the mentioned menaces, but in case my friend takes a fair and balanced list - which we both tend to do - I would hate to use a somewhat cheesy list; he dislikes playing against wood elves as it is. On the other hand, if he does take a dragon I'll need something to deal with it. I think a dragon can be quite devastating against wood elves cuz we dont have many high strength attacks to wound it and our units can be broken easily by it cuz they lack static CR.

Ive been thinking about using a spellweaver and a highborn (possibly on a dragon), and as heroes a spellweaver and a branchnymph with the +1 to DD spite for magic defense plus 1-2 nobles.
About the rest Im not sure yet.

Please help me, what combos are useful against high elves? How can I beat him without risking my list being called cheesy?! :angel:
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Post by Hyarion »

One treeman at least will really help against the poorly armored Asur,
Also load up on Wild Riders who will really help cut through the infantry.

I don't know how much you need the Branchnymph, I would personally take an army geared a little more towards mage hunting rather than magic def, if you do your dragon rider, 2 Lv2 Spellsingers, and a Standard Alter, WD Noble with the Moonstone, and a good number of scouts/waywatchers.
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Post by Alvanda Starslinger »

The amount of devastation an Asur army can throw at you via magic is trully devastating and quite easily(especially at 4000 pts)rule the game so make sure you Max out on Magic Defence(luckily most of your combat troops have magic resistance)and take more then a few Dispell Scrolls too.Go nuts on Gladeguard:your first prority take out his archers,as they are the same range as you make sure your deployed roughly in from the table at 2-5" so he has to move forward(possibly marching too hopefully)to fire at your missile troops,but anyway fire all your Gladeguard shots(wich should be alot at 4000 points)at his Archers ASAP,then start targeting Swordmasters/Whitelions next,fortunately Archery is terrific against other Elven armies as thier foot troops only get 5+ saves and if hes playing the MSU game,then youl have an easier time shooting them down,as for Sea Guard thier Bows are only 24" so before targeting them check to see wether hes advancing or sticking with his Spearmen.You must first deal with his shooting and try and hold off his magic for a few turns before the ambush is sprung.Target his 0-1 Elites infantry as the Spearmen will be used in a deffensive role when thier marched into position,Get your Scouts,Waywatchers,Gladeriders(and Scouty/waywatchery Nobles)to target RBThrowers ASAP.If hes taking alot,be prepared to change targets with your Gladeguard as your infiltrators will need help to stop those RBTs,advance and when in range(wich shouldnt take too long-a turn at the most depepnding on how thier deployed)and dont forget that HODArrow on an Alterd will probably silence
a RBT crew in the first turn.Anyway whilst all the "shoot at thier shooters" is going on,your CQC troops will have to deal with Dragon Princes(fortunately thier 0-1 choice heh heh)and Silverhelms/Tiranoc Charioteers
With any luck his cavalry will be on the flank or both flanks:you know what happens here,gang up ASAP because your CQC troops will be needed to save your Gladeguard by the time youve delt with these threats.If he hangs back-Good!just shoot,after about 2-turns he/she will be forced to advance or risk loosing yet more ranks(or getting wiped if thier MSU).And when those lightly armoured blocks get into the killzone of all that Gladeguard shortranged shooting,its probably goint to be helarious
Elves are actually more fun to shoot up then low T horde armies,they wont panic often but have less units and Asur have 0-1 choices for thier most dangerous troops.Try and get him to split his forces as he probably wont have enough units to deal with everything(even at 4000 ots).Once again I cannot stress enough stop his magic from ruling the game for as long as possible(hopefully your Waywatchers will get a chance to target a Mage Lord,but dont count on it)and ASAP shoot the crap out of his missile units so you can start making those 0-1 Elite infantry units 0-1 ranks.As for a Dragon,I dunno...Shoot It,Alot!Cant be that different from shooting up a Greater Daemon,still that would suck as you want to be shooting at other things instead.Youl have to decide the best way to counter that threat.Good Luck and have fun.
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Post by Minsc »

I Made a little 3999 pts list for you, that I would field against the Asur.

Lords & Heroes

Highborn - 564 pts
Helm of the Hunt
Enchanted Shield
Stone of Crystal Mere
Hail of Doom Arrow
Great Weapon, light armour
Longbow
Mounted on a Forest Dragon


Spellweaver - 330 pts
Magic level 4
Wand of Wych Elm
Dispell Scroll


Spellsinger - 175 pts
Magic level 2
Orb of Divination
Dispell Scroll


Branchwraith - 165 pts
Magic level 1
Cluster of Radiants
Annoyance of Netlings OR Murder of Spites


Noble BSB - 140 pts
Oaken Armour

Core Units

10x Glade Guards /w Musician - 126 pts
10x Glade Guards /w Musician - 126 pts
10x Glade Guards - 120 pts
8x Dryads - 96 pts
8x Dryads - 96 pts
8x Dryads - 96 pts
8x Dryads - 96 pts
5x Glade Riders /w Musician - 129 pts

Special Units

8x Wardancers /w Musician - 151 pts
9x Wardancers /w Musician - 169 pts
9x Wardancers /w Musician - 169 pts
7x Wild Riders /w Full Command, Warbanner - 243 pts
7x Wild Riders /w Full Command, Warbanner - 243 pts

Rare Units
(Since you don't wanted a cheesy army, we'll just have 2 Treemen)

Treeman - 285 pts
Treeman - 285 pts
8x Waywatchers - 192 pts

Pts: 3996
Modells: 122
PD: 9
DD: 7 Rerollable + 2 Scrolls + Orb + 5 Units with MR(1)

Id Say this is a pretty balanced anti-asur list for 3999 pts :)

/Minsc

(Having 2 Treemen and a Dragon is not cheese, since he will probably have at least 4 RBTs)
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Post by Funky Fastfingers »

Thx a lot guys. Your replies have been really helpful. Ill make a list soon based on your comments and post it. I like your list btw, Minsc, though I dont have so many dryads and I would like to use an eagle. Ill see what I can come up with!
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Post by Minsc »

You are aware, that an Eagle would die rather quick vs Asur? ;) (Archers, RBTs, Magic).
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Post by Eldacar »

(Archers, RBTs, Magic)
Archers aren't much of a threat - I'd be worrying more about the magic (a 4000-point battle has nasty opportunities for a Seer Council) and RBTs, personally.
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Post by Minsc »

ofc archers aren't as much of a problem as RBT's and Seer Council's, but at 4000 points, he should have quite a few = dead eagle ;)
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Post by Eldacar »

I've seen 5000-point lists that haven't had a single Archer in them before, actually.
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Post by Delirium's Brother »

If the Asur are as magically potent at 4000 points as everyone says, then I would seriously consider giving the Royal Standard of Ariel to the BSB (and therefore losing the Oaken Armour) for the 12" field of MR it gives; and the Orb of Divination would definitely be useful in this game for clamping down enemy magic. Unicorns for your mages would also be a good idea, because if your opponent wants to dominate you with magic, then the first thing that he is going to do is nuke your mages. That's what I'd do if I was him.

*Turn 1* nuke wood elf mages
*Turn 2* nuke wood elf troops with no MR
*Turn 3* nuke wood elf troops with MR
*Turn 4* game over (practically)

Another thing comes to mind: I don't know High Elves very well, but don't they have extra bonuses to dispel your magic? or is it bonuses to cast their own? I can't remember. If it is bonuses to dispel, you might as well not take the extra levels on your spellweavers and spellsingers. Your own magic is going to be nerfed anyway, and the extra levels don't add anything to your dispel pool, so they might not be worth it in the end. Use the saved points towards unicorns sounds like you might need them.

Of course you might want to read this thread . It was virtually ignored the first time it was posted, so feel free to ignore it again, but there might be some useful ideas there.

How powerful is a Seers' Council? Explain it please, somebody?
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Post by Spire »

Delirium's Brother wrote:Another thing comes to mind: I don't know High Elves very well, but don't they have extra bonuses to dispel your magic? or is it bonuses to cast their own? I can't remember. If it is bonuses to dispel, you might as well not take the extra levels on your spellweavers and spellsingers. Your own magic is going to be nerfed anyway, and the extra levels don't add anything to your dispel pool, so they might not be worth it in the end. Use the saved points towards unicorns sounds like you might need them.
How powerful is a Seers' Council? Explain it please, somebody?
All high elf armies including one or more mages get +1 to dispel. As such I'd agree that 7 magic levels just aren't going to cut it in this situation, unless your opponent is going reasonably light on magic (which I doubt).

A 'Seer Council' list is basically lots of mages, including an archmage (possibly two at this points level), the Book of Hoeth (IF on any double save 1), Banner of socery (extra d3 PD) and the two bound spells. They may also include the Jewel of the dusk, if they feel like going massive overkill.
It's generally a defensive force, so it often has quite a lot of missile fire as well.
Tactics are mainly nuke the sh*t out of everything that gets in range. It is not a pleasant army to face.
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Post by Eldacar »

How powerful is a Seers' Council? Explain it please, somebody?
Somewhere in the region of 25 Power Dice will be hurled at you every magic phase, accompanied by such things as the Book of Hoeth and the Ring of Fury/Corin.
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Post by Delirium's Brother »

What is the approximate point cost of a Seers' Council? Please tell me we are talking 1500+ points.

Why is High Elf magic so much more powerful than Wood Elf magic? Doesn't it spring from the same source and tradition?

This sucks!
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Post by Minsc »

1: well, often its +3000 pts, so that the HE player can have 3 Archmages, and ~3 normal lvl 2 mages.

2: Because we can only have Ather loren on our hero-mages (wich is a support lore), and only our Lord-mages can have Beasts (wich more ore less suck), and Life (wich is quite good for now).

HE Mages can have most lores (right?) but many tend to have the lore of fire, wherea's 5 out of 6 spells are pure damagespells. this means that they will have approximatly 8 or more magic missiles at str4 or more.

HE also get +1 to dispell.

HE also has alot of magic items that enhance's their offensive magicphase, wich we don't.
Somewhere in the region of 25 Power Dice will be hurled at you every magic phase, accompanied by such things as the Book of Hoeth and the Ring of Fury/Corin
I can really see that infront of me: (3000 pts battle)
-*HE player shows the woodelfplayer his 25 PD's that he's gonna use now*

-*WE player nearly faints*

-*HE player says: "I will cas't Conflagation of Doom on your Treekins,
allright?"*

-*WE player sits quietly and nods slowly*

-*HE player casts the spell with 4 PD, its a MISSCAST*

-*WE player begins to look more brightly on the future*

-*HE player rolls the on the misscast table and gets 'your magic phase ends'. HE player begins to crack the dices*

-*WE player dies of laughter, and then starts to move his 50 Dryads, 20 EG's, 20 Wardancers, 10 Wildriders, 4 Treekins, Dragonrider and 2 Treemen closer to the HE army, wich except for its 9 Mages, contains 2x20 Spearelves, some archers, some silverhelms and some RBT's*

*-HE player throws in his towel and says:"I hate this game!"*
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Post by Tethlis »

As Minsc points out, there are certainly downsides to an army that focuses entirelyt on one phase of the game. Funky Fastfingers, if your opponent is opposed to taking "cheesy" lists, then you'll probably see a fine balance of combat and casting characters. Just to be on the safe side, however, I would certainly follow the good list-building suggestions that have been submitted here.

Just to clarify, High Elves have vastly superior magic. In my opinion, they have the finest casting in the game when you compare effectiveness and point cost efficiency. While Tzeentch and Lizardmen can field some true casting powerhouses, they pay exorbitant prices for them. High Elves can match their versatility, have almost as much power, and have some truly excellent wargear. High Magic is a fairly decent lore, with some good anti-magic and anti-casting spells coupled with some truly awesome magic missiles. If he takes High Magic, make sure you familiarize yourself with the lore if you don't already know it. Flame of the Phoenix has the capability rock any one of your units, so make dispelling it a priority. Remember that he is capable of selecting any lore from the WHFB rulebook as well. It's very likely that you won't be getting many spells off yourself, but you have the true potential to dominate him in close combat. Just make good use of your archery, and be certain to hit the soft targets.
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Post by Alvanda Starslinger »

Come to think of it,High and Dark magic are very powerfull,but the Lore of Athel Lorren is actually kinda underpowerd compare to even "lesser" races.
But Wood Elf magic is suposed to be subtle and influential,thier archery is the equivalent of a crapload of magic missiles so dont feel too bad.I still bitch about the fact they dont get Curse Of Arrow Attraction.That would be the uber spell for ASRAI IMO.
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Post by Minsc »

Athel loren is a very good lore imo...Don't understand why people complain so much on it.

(i mean c'mon, how bad is moving woods? 2 magic missiles, etheral form on a entire unit, terrorcausing dryads, regenating treemen and wardancers with killing blow and 3 attacks each?)
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Post by Tethlis »

Alvanda Starslinger wrote:I still bitch about the fact they dont get Curse Of Arrow Attraction.That would be the uber spell for ASRAI IMO.
Isn't it ironic? Given the overpriced, underpowered nature of High Elven archery, I always saw Curse of Arrow Attraction as a slap in the face for Asur players. At least it works on bolt throwers, right? Maybe if they ever bring back the citizen levy rule and let High Elf archers fire in two ranks, it'll justify their exorbitant point cost.

@Minsc: I certainly agree with you, I think that the Lore of Athel Loren is balanced, useful, and very respectable as a lore. It suits the Wood Elves well, enhancing tactics and strategies that the Asrai are already suited for.
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Post by Delirium's Brother »

@Funky Fastfingers:

Don't know if you have the models for this, but this is the army that I would bring against magic'y high elves (forget the dragon-rider):

-characters-
1 Orion+2 Dogs
1 Glamourweaver+Unicorn+WoWE +DScroll+RHstone
1 Glamoursinger+Unicorn+DScroll+DivOrb
1 Glamoursinger+Unicorn+StaffoSorc
1 BSB+Banner of Ariel+LA

-core-
5 Wild Riders+FCmd+WarB [mage-killers]
5 Wild Riders+Mus+StdB+Zenith [marchblockers]
5 Wild Riders+Mus+StdB+Dwindling [lead hammer]
5 Wild Riders+Mus
5 Wild Riders+Mus
5 Wild Riders+Mus
8 Dryads [screen for EG]

-special-
15 Eternal Guard+Eternal+Mus [BSB Here]
12 Glade Guards
12 Glade Guards
7 Wardancers
7 Wardancers

-rare-
1 Treeman
1 Treeman

Points=3,984
97 Models
Dispel Dice=9+2 scrolls, the wand, the orb, and the heartstone
Power Dice=7 + 2 bound Treesinging

Depending on terrain and enemy deployment, here's how I would run it. Keeping Orion, EG, GG, Dryads, and TM within 12" of Ariel's Banner; advance towards the enemy with speed. EG in the center with Dryads in front as screen, GG on the flank of the EG. Orion and Treemen behind the EG to countercharge once the GG are broken or your EG have anvilled the enemy. WR and WD racing up the flanks of the table, harassing, marchblocking, killing warmachines/mages and getting ready to charge into the center.

If things are going your way early, get Orion and the TM out in front with the Dryads. Or else lose the dogs and have him lead one of your WR units.

Everyone here has MR except Orion, EG, GG, Dryads, and TM, so they stay close to the BSB.

I know you have your heart set on taking the dragon-rider, but Orion maxs out WR who have MR. And don't listen to people who say unicorns are too expensive; unicorns rock against magic'y armies. This army would do okay against a balanced HE force or one with cavalry too.
Last edited by Delirium's Brother on 11 Jul 2006, 23:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Minsc »

Now that was riddicously optimized for fighting Heavy Magic Highelves ^^
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Post by Delirium's Brother »

@ Minsc:

Ya, I know.
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Post by Asterion »

I would probably fit in the "veteran" HE player category, havign played them for about 11 years, and have only started my WE army. So I'll give you some inside tips on HE.

Yes magic can be devastating, but it sounds like your opponent isn't the type to bring a total seer council. Expect an archmage, a couple of level 2's and perhaps the gem Hoeth in there somewhere, for a total of 9 level's of magic. However, from that you may cop 13-16 power dice and 1-2 bound spells per turn. My advice? Kill the mages. HE mages die so easy it's not funny. So wild riders, glade riders, warhawks, alter kindred, magic, bad-tempered voles, all these things will kill a mage pretty easily.

The big tip, and this is something that few people seem to recognise (openly at least) is that HE are redundant without their small flanking units. The infantry and cavalry blocks won't be your problem if you kill off their support. So high priority is kill eagles, chariots, small flanking silver helm units and reavers. Without these a HE army starts looking pretty impotent. You can pick your other fights and play with the bigger units at will.

Also, bolt throwers are deadly but with 2 T3 crew they are easily dealt with by shooting or flyers.

HE are fragile to shooting and you should be able to deal with all these threats with shooting.

HE don't handle being stuck in combat AT ALL. Treemen. Just beware of units who can take a 50pt banner as they may have the Banner of Balance, which makes both them and any unit in base contact with it immune to ALL psychology. That means that your treeman, if caught by this unit (I use it with dragon princes) will suddenly lose his stubborn.
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Post by Funky Fastfingers »

Thx a lot for all the replies so far! I got an army finished now, its a mixed army based on wardancers. Please feel free to rip it apart! :)


3.999 points:

Highborn
Wardancer, Blades of Loec, Moonstone, Netlings
290

Spellweaver, lvl4
Wand of Wych Elm, dispel scroll
330

Noble
Wild Rider, Dawnspear
157

Noble
Alter, Sword of Might, Helm of the Hunt, Enchanted Shield, L.A.
152

Spellsinger, lvl2
Seer Crystal, dispel scroll
175

Branchwraith, lvl1
Cluster of Radiants, Paegant of Shrikes
165


16 Glade Guard, command, Aech 241
10 Glade Guard 120
10 Glade Guard 120
5 Scouts 85
5 Scouts 85
5 Glade Riders, musician 129
20 Eternal Guard, command, Warbanner 295
9 Dryads, Nymph 120

8 Wardancers, command 165
8 Wardancers, command 165
8 Wardancers, command 165
6 Wild Riders, command, Faoghir 242
3 Treekin, champion 215

1 Treeman 285
10 Waywatchers, champion 248
1 Eagle 50


Total points: 3.999
PD: 9
DD: 7 (2 scrolls)

All comments welcome!
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Post by Tethlis »

Looks pretty fair, in my opinion. I would swap out your homeborn Alter for the vanilla one, as I feel the Hail of Doom Arrow really comes into its own against other Elves. I don't know about ten Waywatchers? Can you cut them down to six and make room for another unit of Glade Riders?
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