Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

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brechttomme
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Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by brechttomme »

I was just rereading the MSU-tricknology guide and noticed that it was widely agreed upon that a BSB wasn't necessary in such a list. The arguments being twofold: it's a points sink better spent on an extra unit and it isn't really needed for the Leadership-rerolls. The reason being that in an MSU list you're aiming to only engage in favourable combats where you either win by a lot or lose by a lot. In both cases a BSB reroll isn't going to help you much.

Now, I can see the attractiveness of having an extra unit instead of a mostly useless character. I mean, the HoDA on a BSB is nice but it's not equal to 10GG (with points to spare!). So, if the rerolls aren't necessary, that would be awesome. The reason for this topic is to hear from many of you more experienced players as to whether the BSB was worth it in your battles. I assume it'd be good for Panic tests and rallying units that you fled charges with? I've played some of my own games before but I can't really remember if the BSB was crucial (or at least better than an extra unit). Probably because I've played a single game in the last 3 months or so :tear:.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by Mollesvinet »

I would say yes. With multiple units comes multiple panic tests, rally tests and don't forget swift reform tests. If you include treemen then its even more important.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by frogboy »

BSBs are for panzees :thumbsdown:
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by Drstrangelove »

Worth it just for the swift reforms IMO. Failing those is really annoying.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by frogboy »

frogboy wrote:BSBs are for panzees :thumbsdown:
Just like re-rolls in blood bowl...
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by Billthesurly »

Depends. :roll:

Yeah, I know. But if you are going for MSU (avoidance) with max units spread all over the board the BSB is only going to cover a small part of it. If you are going for MSU with really punchy units in the mix like Tk3 or Tm then you probably need a BSB to help keep them around. With 8s as our base Ld value we tend to make most of our rolls anyway and when attempting to rally after a flee a musician kicks it up to 9.

I have done it both ways but I find that the BSB (as currently written) is so damn limited that he's just not that useful except as a Ld baby-sitter. I want more milage out of the points I pay for my Nobles.
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by Mollesvinet »

Even when playing full avoidance it is common that the main part of your army will be in specific part of the board, at least in my experience. The thing is that you want your main forces to be where your opponent has the weakest part of his battleline. Thus it is also imperative that the area where you are most concentrated won't fall apart to panics or similar.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by -dragon- »

Then again, apart from EG, all of our frontline-units are ItP. The only thing you protect with your BSB is your Glade Guards. And these can be protected against panic pretty well by taking them out of range.
However, with the HoDA he can still be useful even if his bubble isn't that mandatory. I'd say he's optional. You're a bit more on the safe side if you take one, but you could make more of your list without him, if you know what you're going against.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by brechttomme »

-dragon- wrote:Then again, apart from EG, all of our frontline-units are ItP. The only thing you protect with your BSB is your Glade Guards. And these can be protected against panic pretty well by taking them out of range.
I've never actually thought about that. Dryads/Wardancers are indeed ItP. So Panic won't be affecting them. If I can then keep GG units far enough away from each other, there'll never be a huge domino-panic effect. And GG are indeed still Ld9 when rallying, which gives us an 83.3% chance to pass on 2D6. 97.2% with a reroll, but I like the odds without. And after all, there are usually multiple opportunities to rally. If you have to skip a turn of shooting or even lose a unit because you're missing a BSB, there's still the unit that has replaced the BSB doing damage.

I might just try out some games without a BSB now, to see how it goes. I should mention that I won't be using Treekin or Treemen though, who seem to need it more for their break tests. If It turns out that he really is necessary in my list, I'll be sure to report my findings here.
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frogboy wrote:BSBs are for panzees :thumbsdown:
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by SpanielBear »

He or she indeed remains damn useful if you have a Treeman anchoring your lines, or any kind of forest spirit for that matter. I've found it worth-while to be a bit more mobile with him than may be obvious, not being afraid to move him out of his parent unit if his bubble is needed elsewhere. He will always be squishy, though.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by popisdead »

frogboy wrote:BSBs are for panzees :thumbsdown:
haha, like magic. bunch of suckers :P

I struggle with BSBs in Wood Elves. If it wasn't for Stubborn on Treemen I would say they don't offer enough to our current book in 8th edition.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by Akaba »

You need to look at it from an efficiency point of view. The BSB is there nominally to provide rerolls on Ld when needed. So it would depend on how you want to play your army and what it consists of. Eg, If you ran an MSU dryad army to consume people by tree spirits, then it might be a good idea for re-rolling any lost combat rolls. Alternatively if you had a msas WHR list then a BSB would be free points for the enemy, and if you needed that reroll, then chances are you made a mistake elsewhere.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by albertoalter »

Akaba wrote:You need to look at it from an efficiency point of view. The BSB is there nominally to provide rerolls on Ld when needed. So it would depend on how you want to play your army and what it consists of. Eg, If you ran an MSU dryad army to consume people by tree spirits, then it might be a good idea for re-rolling any lost combat rolls. Alternatively if you had a msas WHR list then a BSB would be free points for the enemy, and if you needed that reroll, then chances are you made a mistake elsewhere.
I think the perfect opposite:

in a MSU list, you need a lot of re-roll: panic check on Glade Guard, rally test, Fast Reform...
and if you play MSU-avoindance list, there's some LD test you cannot fail. Like a rally test whit your mage-bunker unit.

Besides, in a combat-tree spirits list, usually or you lose the combat a lot, or you win a lot. Etcept Stubborn on treeman.
But I think that kind of list has low win possibly his days...
(note I usually play ETC, but even in a no-comp game, I will not use treeman or heavy CC. Too many armies does it better)
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by godswearhats »

I always bring a BSB. Wood Elves thrive on positional play and being able to outfox your opponent, and so I want as a high a chance of success as possible to control the board. I want my Treeman to hold up the big unit (Ld 8 Stubborn = 73% to succeed, re-roll takes it to 93%), I want to swift reform (same odds) I want to rally on a flee (83% on Ld 9, goes to 97% with a re-roll). I play with a TMA as my general to give a 36" wide Ld 9 bubble - I just wish I could do the same for my BSB.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by ryanabt »

Let me provide you a scenario which occurred during a tournament I recently attended.

I was fighting dwarves and despite the organ gun have an evil 30" range, I was in a perfect crescent moon to avoid his shots. I was taking out one unit at a time and then moving to take on the next unit. Everything was going according to plan...until I failed a single panic test. He cannon'd an eagle riding noble to death and a couple units had to take ld.10 tests. My unit with general & mage failed and ran...toward his army since the eagle noble had been behind it a bit. His organ guns then got their shots on it. First organ gun killed the unit and the second killed the mage and general. 750 points dead due to a panic test.

All of that to say that BSB's are not necessary...until they are. MSU relies on making your tests. A single failed one can lead to disasters (hole in your army, lining up charges, etc.). For this reason, I will take the BSB aysendi's & HODA set up.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by Billthesurly »

I tend to chalk up whiffing Ld 10 tests to "stuff happens". The question should not be whether or not the BSB can save a game every now and then. Of course it can. We all could tell such stories of how our big bunker unit failed it's test and was only saved by the nearby BSB. (or fluffed BOTH checks and ran anyway BSB included!)

The point is that when using an OB without a BSB you have to plan for any eventuality including muffing a big Ld check now and then. When I play sans BSB I don't put my Spellweaver and General in a big bunker unit so that I can loose the whole shebang in one go. I spread everything all over creation and try real hard to give the enemy no obvious center of gravity on which to concentrate his badness.

To bring or not to bring a BSB? I repeat what I said above; it depends.

Now I'm going to put myself out there and say something definitive. If you bring more than one solid close combat unit you need a BSB.
There, how's that for a rule of thumb?
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by ryanabt »

Bill, I try not to disagree with you because I don't want your surlyness getting all over me, but in this case I must.
The odds of failing a ld 10 roll is 8.34%. This is quite high IMO for an army that relies on perfection and exactitude. The problem is not that a single unit runs, it is that the perfectly placed unit moves into a position that can potentially destroy the army. For example, running in such a way that allows the enemy to charge, etc.

Additionally, the BSB allows rerolls for units outside the ld10 bubble. Effectively, if you spread out, you can put your bsb in one area and your general 12" away and then you can extend your "no flee zone" 36" instead of 24".
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by frogboy »

Ok let's try looking at this question from a different point of view...

When you take a BSB and kit him up he is approximately the same cost as a unit of Glade Guard right ? So my question now is what can we gain possibly from not taking a tooled up BSB.

You loose fluffed Ld rolls insurance for the odd game when your dice rolls are bad vs possibly adding enough fire power to distroy another enemy unit per turn per game.

That's why I don't rate the BSB.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by albertoalter »

adding enough fire power to distroy another enemy unit per turn per game.
I don't think that 10 GG can bring so much fire power.
Besides, whiteout bsb, is not so difficult panic a gg unit, loosing that added fire power, with a lot of other problems.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by frogboy »

albertoalter wrote:
adding enough fire power to distroy another enemy unit per turn per game.
I don't think that 10 GG can bring so much fire power.
Besides, whiteout bsb, is not so difficult panic a gg unit, loosing that added fire power, with a lot of other problems.
We already know the pros of taking a BSB, what I'm asking are what are the pros of not taking one ?

adding An extra glade unit is much more likely to help destroy and cause panic tests when added to existing shooting.

Also it's an extra drop in deployment.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by RedPanda »

my opinion is the more points you play the more you should have a bsb, the play style and army composition has an effect on the points required for you to make an effective army:

lets see
some times you need more bodies with larger units or another drop usually lower pt games or in a super large table

other times when you have too many troops or enough to not mess your playstyle common in large pt games or on a small table where a bsb would help more

also there are times where an extra drop is the same as having that fleeing unit rally, you have enough space to fit in either or the bsb common in mid pt games
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by Billthesurly »

ryanabt wrote:Bill, I try not to disagree with you because I don't want your surlyness getting all over me, but in this case I must.
The odds of failing a ld 10 roll is 8.34%. This is quite high IMO for an army that relies on perfection and exactitude. The problem is not that a single unit runs, it is that the perfectly placed unit moves into a position that can potentially destroy the army. For example, running in such a way that allows the enemy to charge, etc.

Additionally, the BSB allows rerolls for units outside the ld10 bubble. Effectively, if you spread out, you can put your bsb in one area and your general 12" away and then you can extend your "no flee zone" 36" instead of 24".
Won't argue. Different strokes and all. If I'm not playing a shoot & scoot, total avoidance list, which has become very difficult with the faster moves of 8th ed coupled with higher army point totals, I bring a BSB. It's just that I don't always bring one.

While we're at it we might just as well say BSB & HoDA because the two almost always go together. And they make a pretty good combo - kind of like chocolate and peanut butter.
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by ryanabt »

It is possible that I am reacting to a few bad situations, but I find that the most frustrating games are those which I lose due to a failed panic check. They are also those which I lose by a lot.

You are right about the BSB/HoDA.

Regarding looking at the positives of the BSB and not only at the positives that the 12 GG could bring, that doesn't even make sense. If saying that you can get 12 GG instead of a BSB of course I look at the positives of both, not just the 12 GG.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by popisdead »

Billthesurly wrote:While we're at it we might just as well say BSB & HoDA because the two almost always go together. And they make a pretty good combo - kind of like chocolate and peanut butter.
I would argue it's a circumstantial combo more so. The HoDA is a very good item. Generally we cannot equip our BSBs offensively and since WE are more avoidance it's a good set up.
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Re: Is a BSB necessary for MSU?

Post by Sidewinder »

popisdead wrote:I would argue it's a circumstantial combo more so.
Agree with you about that. We have that combination because of the effects of 8th edition on the game.
Reading through old army lists postings from 6th and 7th ed, the HoDA was usually equipped to an Alter noble that also had Hunt o/t Helm, light armour, shield, and heavy weapon. On the first turn the noble would use the HoDA on a target that is within short range. On the second turn the Alter noble would flank or rear charge a small unit that is no further than 18 inches away, break the unit and then run it down. With average dice rolls, this noble kit consistently broke and ran down enemy units. Must have been fun to play.
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