Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

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robtion
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Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by robtion »

I am new to playing wood elves and like the idea of wild riders. I have a really fun idea for a unit that I will paint soon.

Question: Are they any good? And if so how many per unit and how many units are needed? I know its vague and depends on the list but any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by FriedTaterExplosion »

My thoughts:

They are good, but in small doses.

I have found taking a unit of five (including the free musician) invaluable. They end up costing just 1 point more than glade riders with a musician- and are far more hard hitting and durable. They excel at clearing chaff; warmachine hunting; killing ethereals; and situationally they can charge in to aid in a bigger combat.

I've tried running a unit of ten with the razor standard (mind you this was under a local comp that also granted all elves including WRs ASF) and found that they did not contribute enough for their points cost.

They definitely can work- they are especially fun to run with a Wyssans cast on them.
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by Findecano »

FriedTaterExplosion wrote:My thoughts:

They are good, but in small doses.

I have found taking a unit of five (including the free musician) invaluable. They end up costing just 1 point more than glade riders with a musician- and are far more hard hitting and durable. They excel at clearing chaff; warmachine hunting; killing ethereals; and situationally they can charge in to aid in a bigger combat.

I've tried running a unit of ten with the razor standard (mind you this was under a local comp that also granted all elves including WRs ASF) and found that they did not contribute enough for their points cost.

They definitely can work- they are especially fun to run with a Wyssans cast on them.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on them too, with one possible exception

I have been experimenting with replacing my eagle noble with a stag noble (trades off the added manoeuvrability of the eagle for the benefits of forest spirits and the ability to join units), and running him up alongside the WR unit, and occasionally joining them is a flexibility I find quite helpful.
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by quiestdeus »

As a relatively new player myself, I found the Tactica thread invaluable: http://asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25763

Check it out, there are actually a number of threads about Wild Riders (e.g., the pros and cons, how to use them, how to make a character to ride with them) and they definitely convinced me to give the WR a shot in some games.
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by popisdead »

I think they are useful.

When charged by a lower init unit they'll pump out 15 attacks (10 and str 4) or have 5 Str 5 and 5 S3 on the charge. For 130 points that isn't bad.
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by Raiderjb »

I'm amount to make the same plunge and try the stag and wild riders for the first time. I've vowed not to purchase them though until my GG are fully painted!
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by robtion »

Thanks for the info, I will check out that tactics :thumbsup: My wild riders are each going to be riding a different animal, so far I have a stag, bear and giant hare, and I will add a wolf and either a boar or giant snail to make a unit of 5.
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by Billthesurly »

I have found that 10 WR with a Noble/Stag are something not to be taken lightly. In a 24 or 2500 pt game; two units of 6 Tk each plus the WR present a real puzzle for your opponent. Two very hard but slower units with a high speed, hard hitting unit that gets from here to there very quickly. Throw in a couple of GG units of 20 to soften up the bad guys plus the usual Dryads and two Great Eagles with an Eagle Noble and you present your foe a fine problem. A level 4 with either life or beasts caps the list. I don't even use a BSB anymore and (heresy!) don't bring the HoDA.

Played the New Dwarves the other night. Really weird to get off spells against the Dwarves and not having to worry about him double-moving with the anvil anymore.
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by Phil Rossiter »

I use 8, FC, Gleaming Pennant plus maxed-out Stag Lord.

They are quite dangerous.
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by CauCaSus »

Why the gleaming pendant? They are immune to psychology.
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by popisdead »

CauCaSus wrote:Why the gleaming pendant? They are immune to psychology.
They can re-roll the first failed LD test. Being far away from a BSB, and having LD 9/10 means they can survive a combat they loose by 3-4 with better odds.
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by Drstrangelove »

I love wild riders. They offer something unique in warhammer in being fast cavalry that hits hard.
I prefer units of 5 with a banner. Rear charge with these bad buys has you 4 combat res up before combat even starts. I ran 3x5 (one with swiftness, one with gleaming pennant and one with war banner) and in games where people didn't have all their points in steadfast units I was able to get small wins just breaking and running down small units.
Against larger stuff I had to kill the bsb and just hope they'd fail their steadfast check (which would happen, but obviously the odds not in my favour).

I have trialled the larger unit with stag and beast weaver on steed in 2nd rank. It's fun, but I don't think it's anywhere near as effective as three small units.
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Drstrangelove wrote:I have trialled the larger unit with stag and beast weaver on steed in 2nd rank. It's fun, but I don't think it's anywhere near as effective as three small units.
What were the two lists doctor? This could make a big difference. But in general you're going for smaller, safer wins with the MSU while the bigger unit is going for gold, with concomitant risks.

I fancy Life more on a ride-along mage for Lifebloom and sometimes Earthblood, though again this depends what else you've got. Overall though, I shy away from adding the caster because lose that unit and you've lost, pretty much. Much of the point of the unit is to use the speed to quickly kill elite flanking stuff like MC, chariot cannon and monsters and then to turn inwards and combo-charge the blocks. So far it's performed very well for me. The problem is the rest of the army!

:)
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by Drstrangelove »

Changed the other aspects of the list a bit too much to be able to make a perfectly fair comparison.
But to sketch it vaguely: 12 wild riders, FC, razor standard with stag noble (dawnspear, PoF, dragonbane gem) and spellweaver on steed (varied her kit a lot, but not a big difference to be honest. Tried life for earthblood but ended up back with beasts mainly for wild form and savage beast), bsb on steed in small glade riders (armour of destiny), often a machine gun highborn (I know he's supposedly suboptimal, but as knights are the big problem the wild riders have I found the synergy good), 20-30 glade guard (sometimes 5 scouts to bunker the highborn), 2x8 dryads, treeman, eagle.
The list came out of experiences of being unable to keep any of my characters alive against even a mildly canny opponent armed with either a fast or shooty list (which is at least 50% of all lists out there). By bringing my spellweaver/bsb along to the combat zone I not only guaranteed that they would be in range for anything they need to do, but also made them much harder points for opponents to get. Sure, I'm in strife if the wild rider unit goes down.....but even without the weaver in there it's basically game over if that happens. So big deal.

I suspect the problem with the list is mainly the stag noble. Sure, he enaes me to push the spellweaver to the 2nd rank.....but losing fast cavalry is HUGE. It still has speed, but no longer has the ability to pick its fights almost at will (although watch out for hand of gork! That was a nasty mistake to make). Most people focus on the fact that the stag doesn't get a look out sir, but really that rarely matters. Cannons are shooting at your treeman, or are flaming and bouncing off your gem.

My other list is essentially the same, but has 3x5 wild riders with banners. Without character support, the razor standard and ranks (miss this last bit the most actually) they can't punch through combat units the same way, nor do I have a safe place to put my spellweaver (back to my previous problem, arg). But they make up for it with sheer mobility and board presence. No small units are safe, war machines have only one turn to take down my treemen (without stag I can run two), and enemy wizards are not safe bunkered up the back of the board (this last one is crucial: many times people end up putting their wizards in combat units to avoid my wild riders, thus ruining the offensive potential of one of their hardest units).

But I really want to keep trying them in large numbers. Once our new book comes this is definitely going to be one of our power builds (just look at dark elf fast cav/avoidance lists! They are filthy/bent as! And we will do it loads better with having a combat fast cav unit) so want to have plenty of practice up my sleeve :)
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by Phil Rossiter »

I'm not saying the Noble version hasn't got mileage but I feel the mechanics of the larger unit change when you've got a Lord in there. By giving him Potion of Strength (and Helm of the Hunt) you get 5 S8 attacks, hitting almost everything on 3's. That lets you reliably kill armour, characters and monsters without magic (a big weakness of Wood Elves). As you infer doctor, the bigger unit can grind, thanks to numbers and the character. This lets you take on combats the smaller units can't. Your points are persuasive but it's just a different approach I feel. For anyone interested in elf cav bus tactics I'd highly recommend a look at the following thread. The WE version is different but many of the same points apply:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=33584

I'm not sure I agree about having the mage in too. The unit instantly becomes a better Dwellers target. You also can lose the unit without the mage and still win, which I'll kind of illustrate with an example:

I have a big unit of Kroxigor and an Ancient Stegadon to tackle. I sacrifice an eagle and some Waywatchers to set up a cavalry charge on the Ancient, kill it immediately and overrun into the Krox flank. Win combat in his turn, he holds on Steadfast 7 (no re-roll), then makes the reform roll. In my turn I need 5" to put Eternal Guard into his flank and roll a 4. He grinds the cavalry down over 2 turns but loses models. I then put Treekin into one flank and Eternal Guard into the other. Rotten dice mean I lose combat by one, I then fail re-rollable 7 and 9 on both units, he pursues and catches the EG, game, 6-14.

Now, if the dice had been slightly less awful, I kill the Krox and am on for a win, despite losing the cavalry. Absolutely right that under the new book, the chances of this happening go from remote to out of sight, simply because of ASF. Having played HE's under the old book, the reliability this lends to your elves is scary. You just knew that putting those Swordmasters into the enemy unit would only end one way. EG are not as good but with ASF they improve exponentially, as do WR's and most crucially of all, fighting characters. In a way, the list I posted here is just a few months too early:

http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25884

If they need it, combat WE lists can get the S required to do damage, from Big Trees, characters and Lore of Beasts. But the sure-thing factor of ASF is maybe why these lists are currently underwhelming and why many players see avoidance lists as being more effective, even in an age of 1+ AS. I agee about the Lorenlord. Being able to chip a wound or two from things like Skullcrushers before you charge them can make a big difference, though whether you can afford him is another matter. But even changing the Bow to something like S 'as user' while retaining the shots = A would give it much more threat and open up lots of possibilites with Lore of Beasts or Potion of Strength.
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by Drstrangelove »

Phil Rossiter wrote:I'm not sure I agree about having the mage in too. The unit instantly becomes a better Dwellers target
No-one apart from us takes Life (I've played against a single LM list that was running it, and he didn't roll up Dwellers), and even we don't take it that much. Certainly not going to build a list with it in mind.
A much bigger issue is just having the WR chipped (a euphemism, as you don't have to hit hard) away by shooting and magic missiles over several turns until the characters are unprotected and the unit useless. Hence why I see Fast Cav as being crucial: being able to get out of the way of shooting arcs decreases the hits you take dramatically.

I see what you are saying about the HB version having more kick, but if anything it seems to demonstrate my problem with the cav bus approach: everybody else does it LOADS better (at least until we get ASF). If you compare a HE/DE lord, who can put out 5 S7 attacks EVERY turn and have a 1+ 5++, plus how much harder it is to whale on their RnF for combat rez.........I doubt our WR + HB bus would win the dice off even on the turn he swallows his potion (and heaven help you thereafter).
Even with a flank charge (which we can assume we are getting, as Fast Cav is the only thing we have that they don't) I can't see us winning combat by more than a little.
Anyway, I'm certainly going to keep trying it but I don't think it's a very competitive build at all until ASF and a straight ward come our way.

S as user? Reaver bow is S+1 and 3xmultishot! If we don't get something at least as good as this I'm going to be most put out.
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Re: Wild riders yay or neigh (pun intended)

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Dwellers was just one example, putting two+ characters in a unit is committal, you risk losing an awful lot at once. Sure it's plenty viable, I'm just giving reasons why I personally don't like it (though I've got caught with my mage in the EG too often lately TBH). I believe Life is starting to come back for two reasons. Firstly, with the demise of old army books, the need for comp is growing less and we are seeing more uncomped events. Even comped events are often relaxing the former blanket LoS allowed against Dwellers. Needless to say, uncomped Dwellers is very powerful. Secondly, the DE book is the ultimate example of a glass cannon, killy beyond words but the troops die fast. Life seems a good fit for it. I found the following interesting:

http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 3&t=121935

Mr Curry is of course a big fan of both uncomped warhammer and Dark Elves. Where he leads, others tend to follow.

A fair point about the shooting problem for WR's. But the unit+character(s) should be going down last and be deployed opposite something it wants to charge turn 2. Yes, the HE and DE equivalents are stronger but hell, the HE and DE books are stronger, most of their builds are stronger than most WE builds. I don't think it's likely that the buses would be facing off against each other. If they do, I don't see it being that easy to get a flank charge. There's no way I would take a charge from one of those things, with BSB in there too it's a bigger investment and simply stronger. That doesn't make the WE version ineffective. How many things do we have that can kill Skillcannon, Demigryphs, monsters and still do something else after? If I have to charge a bus like that, I have KB on the Lord to make things interesting, especially as I've seen a lot of 1+ re-rollable without the Ward on both High and Dark elf cav lords. Is the build competitive? Is any WE build competitive? You take Triple Tree, Daemons & Dwarfs murder you. You take a bowline ditto WoC and 1+Save Empire. If I had to improve that list I posted I'd drop the Treekin for more archers, flying monsters are a big issue but then they are generally.

Lol, Reaver Bow has been better than Bow of Loren for three editions! Which has always confused me. I'm thinking about the minimum necessary to make WE's competitive TBH. Reaver does take the multiple shot penalty and is capped at three shots (Loren with Savage Beast is great of course). The lack of any shooting above S4 is crippling. If we get utterly filthy magic items like the High Elf ones, I'll be the first to write them into my list.
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