how many points in lords and heroes

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Coldpsyker
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how many points in lords and heroes

Post by Coldpsyker »

Hey all, so I am new to fantasy (played 40k for like 6.5 years now), and I am wondering: is there a good ruleof thumb for how many points you should be spending on lords and heroes?
I am assuming it is not a good idea to spend almost 50% of your points on single elf character models.
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hutobega
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Re: how many points in lords and heroes

Post by hutobega »

well no you can't spend 50% on a single character only 25% on your army =P lords and heros are separate choices. And the percentage break downs depend on the army seeing as some armies have way better characters than most. With wood elves people tend to fill up all their points they can with characters for example

Lords

Level4 mage with a scroll
Treeman ancient with netlings usually nets you the max 25% in a 2500 point game

now for heroes

Noble, Eagle some gear
Nobel BSB bane and Hoda
Noble stag or elven steed with some gear

Your looking at most of youre hero points taken up

After that is when people bring their minumim core and max rare with treeman and 2 eagles special to taste.
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valmir
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Re: how many points in lords and heroes

Post by valmir »

Yeah, I think there's basically no way around taking a very character-heavy army with wood elves. My instinct is to resist this - I cut my WFB teeth with a horde empire army (but this is back in 6th, where a 30 dudes in a unit was considered MASSIVE), but with woodies, we really need the additional killing and/or buffing power that characters bring.

I keep trying to throw together 2400 lists that only have 2-3 characters so that I can max out on units, but it never seems to really work...
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Re: how many points in lords and heroes

Post by Luminith »

With some armies, the characters do the work, and the units are more of a character delivery system (or a bus). Our characters, however, don't achieve this level of awesomeness haha. I'd say the absolute most you'd want for characters in one army is: lv4 mage, noble on an eagle, BSB. You could also swap out the noble on eagle for a alter kindred high born with bow of Loren and arcane bodkins. I find its best not to sink more points than that.

Hopefully the new book gives us more reasons to take characters :D
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Luminith
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Re: how many points in lords and heroes

Post by Luminith »

valmir wrote:Yeah, I think there's basically no way around taking a very character-heavy army with wood elves. My instinct is to resist this - I cut my WFB teeth with a horde empire army (but this is back in 6th, where a 30 dudes in a unit was considered MASSIVE), but with woodies, we really need the additional killing and/or buffing power that characters bring.

I keep trying to throw together 2400 lists that only have 2-3 characters so that I can max out on units, but it never seems to really work...
Wow, polar opposites haha

Can you give me some examples of what you bring? I often want to bring more characters, but can't see what they would do that's better than 10 more glade guard. My mentality, to quote the Simpsons, is "shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out" :P
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Re: how many points in lords and heroes

Post by Beithir Seun »

To back up Luminith here, I don't think there are many Wood Elf lists that max out on characters. There's simply no real need for it. As with everything in any Wood Elf army, everything is there for a purpose, and that applies equally to characters - unless you need them to fulfill a specific role, you don't need them. To be honest, I think the most common character setup for the majority of standard lists is a Lv.4 Spellweaver, a BSB and perhaps an Eagle Noble for warmachine hunting (taking the place of the Alter Noble from 7th Ed.)

Of course, there are some lists that will deviate - Eternal Guard Deathstars (such as the one GWH posted up recently) or Triple Tree lists for example - but there's not a lot that our characters can really offer beyond the two or three "compulsory" choices mentioned above. More often than not, it's better to spend the points on units unless there's a specific role you need a character for that can't be fulfilled by a unit.
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Re: how many points in lords and heroes

Post by hutobega »

Yea Bel is right it does depend on your army comp (triple or double treeman) (eternal guard block) (Wild rider bus) all of thoes are character heavy.

MSU, and the other faster moving version are not as character heavy but lots more units.
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valmir
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Re: how many points in lords and heroes

Post by valmir »

Beithir Seun wrote: Of course, there are some lists that will deviate - Eternal Guard Deathstars (such as the one GWH posted up recently) or Triple Tree lists for example - but there's not a lot that our characters can really offer beyond the two or three "compulsory" choices mentioned above. More often than not, it's better to spend the points on units unless there's a specific role you need a character for that can't be fulfilled by a unit.
Okay, and my difficulties may be entirely to do with this - lots of cavalry (that means less effective shooting), trying to make Eternal Guard work (not as a deathstar, just also not dead).

Depending on the list, there are a lot of buffs available through magic items that border on the essential, where you then just kinda need to pay a "character tax" in order to bring them. Dawnspear, Rhymers Harp, HoDA, these sorts of things. And just packing those three items requires either 2 lords or 1 lord and 2 heroes. Plus any magic resistance you want.

My instinct from previous armies is always to play characters something close to naked, and let the troops shine. But I find this hard to do with WE. Because that *function* that everything needs to have is so often dependent upon an item, rather than their presence in an abstract sense.

(I also haven't played a game bigger than 1500 points with wood elves, yet, although I have the models for it. My "throwing lists together" is always a thing of trying to imagine how my current approach might scale up).
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Re: how many points in lords and heroes

Post by Beithir Seun »

I agree that sometimes you need an item, so have to take a character, but the necessity of that item depends on the type of list definitely. I play Eternal Guard with just a Lv.4 Weaver and BSB, and with no Harp, and they work just fine. I don't consider the Dawnspear or HoDA borderline essential either. If you've only played at 1500 or less so far, I can't imagine a list where those items are essential to be honest.

For the cost of taking a Noble with HoDA (and no other upgrades or items) you're only marginally cheaper than 10 Glade Guard - in terms of output though, you're getting 18 S4 shots + 5 S3 shots max. versus the potential for 60 S4 shots over the course of a game. For the cost of a Wild Rider Noble with Dawnspear (again, assuming no other upgrades or items), you could simply use the points to buy another 5 Wild Riders. The cost of a Lv.4 with the Harp isn't justified against with the cost of the Eternal Guard unit she's supposed to protect unless the unit is 30+ models, which is when you should be going full Deathstar anyway!
My instinct from previous armies is always to play characters something close to naked, and let the troops shine. But I find this hard to do with WE. Because that *function* that everything needs to have is so often dependent upon an item, rather than their presence in an abstract sense.
That might be the problem. You should definitely be letting the troops shine, because they're what will win you the game, but the function of your units definitely doesn't depend on an item or items. Rhymer's Harp won't make your Glade Guard any better at shooting, or your Eagles better at redirecting, or your Treeman better at Thunderstomping, for example. That's not to say that your units won't benefit from certain items, but that isn't the same as *needing* items to function or play a role within the army.

I'd be interested in seeing your usual list to see what it is you're taking and what you're doing with your characters!
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Lumpin Croop
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Re: how many points in lords and heroes

Post by Lumpin Croop »

My characters almost always amount to a third of my total. This works well for me.
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Re: how many points in lords and heroes

Post by Zefiris »

For me my characters it normally sits around 1/5 of my total points.
Sometimes 1/4 of my total points if the character replaces a unit (a treeman for instance), or a eagle noble replacing an eagle etc.
This is the same with my High Elf army.

Yea our lord choices are not the kit them what ever style you want type of lords and the units which we can put them into is limited, so our lord choices tend to be much fewer due to our army type in general.
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Re: how many points in lords and heroes

Post by popisdead »

Starting out a Lvl 4 and and BSB is sufficient. If you have other Treemen adding a Treeman Ancient is not a bad idea. Nor are Great Eagle Nobles. Until Great Eagle nobles got a boost I only ran the lvl 4 and BSB.

The problem with Wood Elves is the characters are really expensive (a Slann comes with a 4+ ward and is still cheaper than our lvl 4 with a 4+ ward but he has access to over 4 times more lores and more wounds, let alone all the other abilities) and don't add enough any longer to warrant maxing out unless you have a theme (such as EG-bus, Stag-bus, 5 Great Eagle characters, etc).

Having said that adding the odd character in for support isn't necessarily a bad idea. A Wardancer noble with the Moonstone and Opal Amulet in a small unit can add a good mage-bunker hunting unit. The Dawnspear on a Noble as a Wild Rider in a unit is a good value. The problem is these characters tend to not survive round 1 of combat. And then, once you start kitting WE characters out for defence you lose offence which unless running an EG-bus is more important.
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Re: how many points in lords and heroes

Post by HeroZero »

Required
Lvl 4, Dispel Scroll
Noble, BSB

The rest is seasoning to taste for the rest of my list

Right now I'm enamored with adding because he's so useful.

Noble, great Eagle, GW, Broach, Annoyance
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Re: how many points in lords and heroes

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Agree with most of what's been written.

I use lord-level caster, BSB, killy combat lord. Because the latter can do things it's hard to get from other list options.

But the whole damn book is so expensive that as said, you really have to be able to justify the points spent here.
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