Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

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godswearhats
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Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by godswearhats »

Fleshing out this fun idea.

I think there might be mileage in a Glade Rider "death star" unit, where the front rank was all made up of characters - a Highborn and two Nobles on Great Eagles in the front rank (or just three nobles), with a wizard and BSB in the second rank on Steeds, and then fill up the second rank and third rank with Glade Riders - bearing in mind Glade Riders are limited to 10 total. You'd miss +1 from not being able to have a 4th rank.

Great Eagle characters would all get a 5+ Ward (from Rhymer's Harp on your wizard) and a 2++ ward vs magic (from an Obsidian Lodestone on your BSB) - yes I'm borrowing heavily from my Eternal Guard list. The big difference is that your front rank is now all T4 due to the Eagles, and they'd all be able to get a 3+ Armor Save pretty easily. Run your Wizard on Lore of Beasts and when you charge and cast the boosted Savage Beast you would get 19 S8 attacks, 18 S7, 4 S6 and 3 S4 attacks :-)

It's cheaper than the Wild Rider bus because there's no cost for kindred (although you make up for it by paying for the Rhymer's Harp). Your kit out possibilities for the front rank is unlimited because you're not Wild Rider kindred, so you're not restricted to just spears and light armor.

Thoughts? Ideas for front rank kit? Pointswise, you'd be looking at around 1200-1300 or so, which is pretty pricy, assuming you fully kit out the Lord and Nobles, but still cheaper than my Eternal Guard (which pips in at 1511!).
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by Mollesvinet »

As far as i know, when flyers join a unit of non-flyers they cannot use their flying movement for the duration of their stay. This means that the entire unit will be using the great eagles movement of 2.

"Units made up entirely of models that can fly can move or charge normally on the ground, using their Movement value, or instead choose to fly" Page 70 BRB

This kinda puts an end to the concept i am afraid.
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by godswearhats »

Arg! Yeah, I just read that also.

It's actually still not a terrible idea if you know you're going to make a shortish charge, but yeah. Suck.

Oh well :-)
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by Mollesvinet »

You can however fly eagles into units that have already moved, so you could use it to recieve a charge. However, i think a small unit of eternal guard would be better for this. Face them with the flank toward the enemy and fly your eagle character in, then put him on the flank toward the enemy. Now he is stubborn and ready to recieve the charge :)
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by frogboy »

It would have been too hard to get them ranked up anyway...

How about having the characters on steads, you loose the T4 but you still get all the equipment options and they'd all be fast Cav and can't be stomped. Which would still be cheaper than the eternal guard and wild rider bus.
Sounds like an effective way to get killy characters where you need them, might work what do you guys think ?
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Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by Dalsgaard »

I dont think they get fast cavalry?? That would make me consider switching the stag with steeds though.

Edit: just read the wood elves bestiary and I guess our lords do become fast on a steed. Sweet
Last edited by Dalsgaard on 26 Feb 2014, 18:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by Slobber »

Per the current faq; Page 30, 53 – Elven Steeds, Special Rules
Add “Special Rules: Fast Cavalry.”
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by Zefiris »

frogboy wrote:It would have been too hard to get them ranked up anyway...

How about having the characters on steads, you loose the T4 but you still get all the equipment options and they'd all be fast Cav and can't be stomped. Which would still be cheaper than the eternal guard and wild rider bus.
Sounds like an effective way to get killy characters where you need them, might work what do you guys think ?
Being they are not Forest Spirits, they don't suffer from someone holding the Fimbulswinter Shard, nor do they have equipment restrictions of armor & weapons like the Wildriders. From the point savings of the kindred upgrade you can easily buy another hero, and the point difference between the Glade Riders vs WildRiders can help give you the points to purchase those crazy combos.

The only 2 negative is that you cannot take a magical banner, so no razor standard... not like you really need it if you have no equipment restrictions, and which was stated before limit of unit size.

It is your choice if you want the Stag benefits (how you do in combat), vs/or if you want the fast Calvary rule (how you get into combat)
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by Mollesvinet »

Only wild rider kindred may ride great stags, so really the only choice is elven steeds.
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by Drstrangelove »

the problem is the GR themselves. WR are bad enough when it comes to taking a hit, but GR are simply terrible. With the massive target that will be painted on this unit you will be only reaching combat with any GR at all if your opponent has basically no shooting and magic. Very quickly you will be in a scenario where the characters are not getting a LoS roll.
Lack of ItP is also a risk, as should they panic it would be a disaster.
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by Zefiris »

Well normally yes GR cannot take hits compared to WR without characters.
But in a character bus because we have the Harp, GR is the exact same as WR when you use Harp when taking hits. The only difference is that the Tattoos have magic resistance.

The extra attack isn't much of a benefit when you cannot use those magical spears in a non-charge so you are back to having your normal characters str on the other phases.
The WR have 1 higher WpS and 1 higher Str which is excellent still the 2ed rank only gets 1 attack with your characters pushing them out of the front rank, and the fear on charges.
Personally I rather have a Wild Riders MSU for point effectiveness and coordinated charges.

The main problem about ItP is that you cannot flee, so for sure a WR unit will 100% get into combat much more faster than GR.
But without ItP your going to need a BSB or Elynett's Brooch maybe a crown of command, or the Horn and maybe give someone in the unit fear/terror.
Plus with the Harp, you can go through any type of terrain without any problems, so fleeing from a charge is less of a problem.

yea I still think on a non-character bus that
Wild Riders = How you do in combat
Glade Riders = How you get into combat

In a character bus I think Glade Riders are better than Wild Riders in a bus if you are only keeping it kinda small (10unit + characters).
Only if you really load up with WR 15+, and maybe stags is when WR start to outshine the GR but with a big big big point target on it or if you want to do bare naked characters then yes Wild Riders are better.
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by frogboy »

Just a random idea...

What if you had two highborns on eagles and four nobles on eagles form a unit ? That would be viable at 2500 points.

And it shall be called...

Flystar

:paranoid:
Last edited by frogboy on 28 Feb 2014, 00:17, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Altered spelling mistake, from to form
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by godswearhats »

Unfortunately it's not legal. You can't join a unit of flyers :-(
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by hutobega »

I really hope that great eagle riders can join war hawks next book.../drool I will die. sorry for being slightly off topic
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by frogboy »

godswearhats wrote:Unfortunately it's not legal. You can't join a unit of flyers :-(
No I mean have six characters on great eagles make a unit
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by godswearhats »

Frogboy: you can't do that. Two flyers cannot create a unit. Think about it: each model counts as a unit. Characters cannot join units of flyers.
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by Slobber »

Zefiris wrote: The extra attack isn't much of a benefit when you cannot use those magical spears in a non-charge so you are back to having your normal characters str on the other phases.
double check the rules, I'm sure this has been answered in a faq. You DO get to use the spears every turn charge or not. But you're right on the strength, that's why I always include a beast weaver in my buses. Wysan's is great but there is nothing like a big savage beast.
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by frogboy »

godswearhats wrote:Frogboy: you can't do that. Two flyers cannot create a unit. Think about it: each model counts as a unit. Characters cannot join units of flyers.
Haha yeah I knew that I was just testing you guys :paranoid:

:D

I guess I'm getting confused with the whole idea of eagle nobles joining the glade riders then thinking it would be the same thing but without the glade riders...

Ok I'll just stop now...
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by Zefiris »

Slobber wrote:
Zefiris wrote: The extra attack isn't much of a benefit when you cannot use those magical spears in a non-charge so you are back to having your normal characters str on the other phases.
double check the rules, I'm sure this has been answered in a faq. You DO get to use the spears every turn charge or not. But you're right on the strength, that's why I always include a beast weaver in my buses. Wysan's is great but there is nothing like a big savage beast.
? Where??? I missed that faq or that part in the core rulebook.
I know the rule on magic weapons that you must use it, but the weapon type rule also kinda invalidates that rule. The examples I know of are lances from other armies which you have to switch to their hand weapon.
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by Slobber »

After digging through FAQs rule books and forum posts it's clear that there isn't a clear ruling. :paranoid: The Britonia book gives charging knights the option to fight with a magical lance after the charge. This combined with the brb rule on always using your magical weapon would indicate that it's permisable. The real issue is that the brb contradicts itself. I'd say talk to whomever it is that your play before the game. I'd also like to note that the etc FAQ addresses this, it's a shame that GW clearly has had no interest in updating the official FAQ.
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by Zefiris »

Slobber wrote:After digging through FAQs rule books and forum posts it's clear that there isn't a clear ruling. :paranoid: The Britonia book gives charging knights the option to fight with a magical lance after the charge. This combined with the brb rule on always using your magical weapon would indicate that it's permisable. The real issue is that the brb contradicts itself. I'd say talk to whomever it is that your play before the game. I'd also like to note that the etc FAQ addresses this, it's a shame that GW clearly has had no interest in updating the official FAQ.
I think it is because all the magical spears/lances now have the extra description saying that you have to use your hand weapon on subsequent rounds (High Elf book comes to mind), hence there was no need to update the Rulebook and you also wont have billions of people emailing them asking the same question just because they did not read all of the Rulebook.
Being our book is written ages ago, I am surprised that this is not written in our FAQ being someone should have asked about it.
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by WizzyWarlock »

This is how I read it:

Magic Weapons: Unless otherwise stated, a magic weapon is treated as a hand weapon, and follows the rules for such.
Magic Weapons: A character that has a magic close combat weapon cannot use any other close combat weapons.
Spear: A spear is only used in a turn in which the wielder charged into combat. In subsequent turns (or if the wielder did not charge) the model uses its hand weapon.

So the rule says that a character uses a magic weapon in close combat over other weapons, but that rule also assumes the weapon is a hand weapon. The spear, when mounted, can only be used in a charge and isn't a hand weapon, so can't be used if the wielder hasn't charged. There is something I do wonder about though and that's our two spears. The Spear of Twilight has been FAQ'd to have the word, "Spear.", in front of it, so that definitely acts as a normal spear. However, the Dawnspear hasn't and reads, "Counts as a spear.". Does that mean it falls under the same rules or that you also use spear rules, i.e. the +1S on a charge?
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Re: Glade Rider / Eagle Bus idea

Post by RedPanda »

It is the "Unless otherwise stated" which screws up the entire thing, and under the spear/lance entry it specifially states that you have to switch to your handweapon.
That is fine and dandy for normal items being it is more better for that parry save, but for characters you have a problem.
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