Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

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Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by godswearhats »

This question comes up a lot, and I couldn't find a good post on it so thought I'd start the conversation. The question is (in one form or another) "Here's my army list, I've got a L4 Spellweaver, should I take Lore of Life or Lore of Beasts on her?"

The answer is not simple, which is why it comes up so often. I'll start by giving a summary of the two lores, and then discuss the army archetypes that might best suit each lore. I'm also going to touch on the Lore of Athel Loren as an alternate, why it works well with the Wood Elf army, and what the shortcomings are vs the rulebook lores. I'll give my personal ranking for the spells (stack ranking), and give some notes on why you might want one spell vs another.

Lore of Beasts
Beasts is an aggressive lore. It works best for armies that want to get into close combat, with a range of spells that will augment your units or characters. Most of the spells have quite a casting value and a short range, which means your caster and end up being a little more at risk. The lore attribute makes each spell easier to cast on Monsters, MI, MC, Cavalry, Warbeasts or Beastmen (value drops by 1), so your augments are easier to cast on your own units of this type, and likewise easier to hex / magic missile your enemies.

Lore of Life
Life is a defensive lore. It works best for avoidance or 'come and get me' armies, and aims at keeping your army alive for as long as possible by increasing toughness, healing and so forth. The casting values across the board are lower than for Beasts, which means you can occasionally get one extra spell in with the same number of power dice. The lore attribute is fantastic, allowing you to restore one wound to any wounded multi-wound model, but it has a short range (12") which is why it works best with highly mobile avoidance (because your Wizard can move where she needs to be) or 'come and get me' armies where most of your units are close together anyways.

Lore of Athel Loren
Athel Loren is a more balanced lore, but from an older book. This mean that it only has six spells including the signature equivalent (vs six + signature), has no lore attribute, and the benefits from the spells are somewhat muted compared to the BRB lores. It is the only lore available to hero-level spell casters. All the spells have the same range (18") and low casting values, although none of them can be boosted. However, no other army has access to these spells and therefore your opponents frequently won't be familiar with the spells you have available.

Using the spells

Just quickly: when you roll your four dice, don't forget that if you roll a double and you get to trade one of those away for the spell of your choice - you should never choose the signature spell with the first of those dice, because you can always trade away the second of those dice for the signature if that's what you want. Some people forget that, so I though it worth mentioning here.

Lore of Beasts
godswearhats stack ranking
  1. Wyssan's Wildform (signature)
  2. Amber Spear
  3. Savage Beast of Horros
  4. Curse of Anraheir
  5. Flock of Doom
  6. Transformation of Kadon
  7. Pann's Impenetrable Pelt
I always want #1 and would swap any of #4-#7 to get it. I think that every battle you'll want to boost the S/T using Wyssan's Wildform. Amber Spear is the closest that Wood Elves get to any kind of artillery, and is the most reliable way we have of dealing with high Toughness and Armor Save (Oldblood Cowboys, Daemon Princes, and so on) and it's unlikely I would take any other spell over it. If you're playing an army with a good portion of close combat characters, Savage Beast of Horros is a heck of a weapon. Even with only one or two combat characters, this is the equivalent of two turns of combat (yours plus your opponent's) with 120pts of magic weapons. Curse of Anraheir is the only long range spell in the lore (and so of more use in Turn 1 than pretty much any other spell), and is great to help dominate movement/shooting in the early game, and close combat in the late game. It's often underestimated by opponents (who fear Wildform more), but it often means saving 1/3 of the number of casualties in your unit (turning 4+ to hit to 5+).

Beyond these spells, we get into spells whose usefulness is curtailed by the situations in which they can be used. I had originally rated Flock of Doom lower down, but several comments have led me to believe that it is very useful vs armies with T3 crewed War Machines (such as Empire, Bretonnia, other Elves) due to its long range when boosted. Transformation of Kadon is limited in that you need to be on foot to use it. It also remains in play, which has its own weaknesses. However, late game, it can literally change the balance of the battle, giving you a flame template to shoot and/or a rampaging amount of attacks (if you're already in combat, choose the Mountain Chimera over the Fire Dragon, and vice versa if you want the breath weapon). If your opponent rolls unluckily for Winds of Magic in their phase, you are getting a 300+ point monster to rampage with for a while :-) Pann's Impenetrable Pelt can be useful in rare circumstances (for keeping a Treeman Ancient alive, or a squishy for example), but it's somewhat limited by range and that it must target characters.

WizzyWarlock also wrote up some commentary on Lore of Beasts here.

Lore of Life
godswearhats stack ranking
  1. Throne of Vines
  2. Flesh to Stone
  3. Regrowth
  4. The Dwellers Below
  5. Awakening of the Wood
  6. Earth Blood (signature)
  7. Shield of Thorns
The obvious difference here is how low I've ranked the signature spell, Earth Blood. A good portion of our units already have a 5++ ward, and the sorts of attacks we worry about are flaming anyway, so having a 5++ regen is not a huge advantage. Eternal Guard are the only close combat unit in common use that don't have a ward save, and they are frequently accompanied by the Rhymer's Harp to grant them a 5++. Throne of Vines is the #1 choice as it gives you both miscast protection (making it safer to throw more dice at other spells) and makes most of the other spells better. It has two big downsides: everyone knows it's the best spell in the lore and needs dispelling, and because it remains in play it's easier to dispel than normal. However, every time you start your magic phase by throwing two dice at Throne of Vines, you are usually drawing out three of their dispel dice. I rated Flesh to Stone second because it is the spell in the lore that will keep your units alive for longer than pretty much any other spell. In combination with Throne of Vines it can make your elves T7, or your Treeman T10! Having your units wounded only on 6s even by very strong units can make it much easier to set up flank charges and win combats. I've cast this on a unit of 8 Dryads and watched them bring down a K'Daii Destroyer. Regrowth is the spell that resonates most with the lore - literally bringing your models back to life. This spell can be used to heal Treemen, or bring anything back that has taken damage. The Dwellers Below I rank in the middle of the pack. It's another possible way to take out units that we otherwise can't (1 in 6 chance to kill pretty much any model in the game) but it needs a lot of power dice to work, and will almost always draw a dispel scroll - with luck, it can be devastating. However, the threat of Dwellers is almost as good as casting it. If you get 8 or more for winds of magic, 2 dice for Throne of Vines leaves your opponent with only three dice to try to dispel your Dwellers below, meaning that they may not even try to dispel Throne. I've used this tactic and then went on to cast Flesh to Stone on 2 dice before throwing only 4 at Dwellers (or none at all!). Awakening of the Wood seems like it works well for Wood Elves, who get an extra forest to help ensure the 2d6 hits rather than just d6. However, it's only S4, and you're often better off spending your power dice on the Treeman's Tree Singing bound spell to do d6 S5 hits if the unit's in a Forest. If you happen to also have Throne of Vines, this spell is quite good, but the chances of having enough dice for that and getting them both through is slim. Finally, Shield of Thorns suffers from being a "remains in play" spell and from being very low strength, even when boosted. However, it does happen each magic phase, so not all bad.

WizzyWarlock also wrote up some commentary on Lore of Life here.

Lore of Athel Loren
godswearhats stack ranking
  1. The Call of the Hunt
  2. Ariel's Blessing
  3. The Hidden Path
  4. Fury of the Forest
  5. The Twilight Host
  6. Tree Singing
It's important to note that I only rate Tree Singing last because you will usually have a Treeman or two who will have this as a bound spell, and so you're better off not taking it if you can avoid it. The spell itself is excellent, allowing you to move Forests to your advantage (dangerous terrain tests for cavalry is my favorite, as well as getting them in a spot so that your Treeman's Stangleroot stand and shoot is S5 instead of S4), and doing direct damage to units in Forests. This spell single-handedly has made my gaming group fear the trees! So, great spell, just not needed on your spell casters. The Call of the Hunt, is actually one of the best spells in the game. The combination of low casting cost and utility (it can move or buff) makes this the best spell in the lore. Ariel's Blessing is like Throne of Vines + Earth Blood, and thus is quite highly rated. Very useful for keeping a squishy unit alive, or when facing magical attacks (like Daemons). The Hidden Path is likewise excellent for keeping your units alive, particularly against mundane artillery like Empire cannon (useless against Skullcannon though). The only magic missile spell is Fury of the Forest, which is boosted when units are near forests. However, it's effect is so similar to the direct damage version of Tree Singing that I've rated it quite low. Finally, most of our good close combat units already cause Fear, making The Twilight Host probably the least useful. Although the Fear gets upgraded to Terror, with the change in rules to Terror it's a lot harder to use this spell properly as you'd need to cast it in your turn knowing that you'll charge the following turn (and Ld tests are so easily passed these days).

Having now played with 2 L2s on Athel Loren a couple of times, I think it's not as bad a lore as people make it out to be. I certainly don't feel it's the optimal choice vs our other two options, but I also wouldn't be afraid to run it if I wanted to run a 4 Treeman list :-) Ooo, now I want to run a 4 Treeman list.

Lores for archetypes

In a 2,500 pt army, this is how I think the lores stack up against each other for some common archetypes. This list is by no means comprehensive (and in fact needs a tactica all of its own!). AL is just shorthand for Athel Loren.
  • Any Forest Dragon list: AL (enforced due to points)
  • Eternal Guard bus: Beasts, Life, AL
  • Wild Rider bus: Beasts, Life, AL
  • Triple Treeman: Life, Beasts, AL
  • Glade Guard Gunline (70+ GG): Life, AL, Beasts
  • Sethayla (all mounted): Beasts, AL, Life
I'm looking to make this as useful a resource as possible, so please comment with your own experiences, particularly around Life magic (I've not had much success with it, so I think it doesn't suit my play style). Also looking for other army archetypes, hints and tips for spells and so forth.

Thanks for reading,
~gwh


Edit History
2013-12-12: moved Flock of Doom up in stack ranking
2013-12-13: added references to WizzyWarlock's write ups
2014-01-16: added some further reflections on Lores of Life & Athel Loren
Last edited by godswearhats on 13 Dec 2013, 23:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Kakapo42 »

Something I've noticed regarding the Lore of Life is that Throne of Vines can potentially turn Awakening of the Wood into a makeshift Amber Spear, and provide an option for dealing with hardened targets. Throne of Vines boosts Awakening of the Wood to S6, enough to threaten tough armoured targets. Even if you roll poorly and the target isn't in a forest, it's still at least one guaranteed S6 hit, which could make all the difference, especially against units that deteriorate with damage like, say, a Steam Tank.

Also, I think Lore of Life could work well combined with the Lore of Athel Loren and/or a Treeman for that exact reason- you could potentially treesing forests to deal even more damage with Awakening of the Wood, or even combine it with Fury of the Forrest to deal heavy damage to units.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Mollesvinet »

I think Lore of Beast is also good for a defensive army, lets say MSU army with alot of glade guard.

First of all we have two very long range spells, curse and flock of doom. Flock of doom is quite good against warmachines and monsters without armor saves. Curse of anraheir is insane when combined with eagle blocking, especially against frenzied units... Do you really want to charge? You will lose 1/3 of the unit from charging and another 1/3 from overrunning. That usually beats dwellers below, as most priority targets will have high strength anyway.

Amber spear is solid as we all know, but it only works if your targets are out of close combat. Savage beast can be used on a machine gun highborn, though those arent so popular anymore. Transformation of kadon i would use mainly as a defensive tool as well, the most frequent way my spellweaver and her bunker is caught is by single characters with flying or high move. In this case you can challenge them out in their turn, and in your own turn you can go monster and eat them.


I'm not too impressed with lore of life at the moment, though i do try it out from time to time. I think its just too easy to prioritize dispells against it. Also requiring the throne for your spells to be good means that you are often on par with your enemy when it comes to power dice vs dispell dice. Lastly dwellers just isn't as good as it used to be, but maybe its just the armies i play against. Everything i want my super spell to kill usually have 4 or 5+ strength. It should be noted that i play in a comped environment, so characters get look-out-sirs and casting dice are capped at 5. The range of the spells are all 24", 18" or 12" (spell attribute) so the range of beast magic is actually better.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Drstrangelove »

I'd definitely rate flock of doom higher. It's range and low casting value means that it is always an option to do a couple of wounds to something, eg war machines which would otherwise wreck your treemen before your war machine hunters can get there.

My problem with life is throne of vines: either they let it through and then dispel your real spells, or dispel it leaving you with a bunch of mediocre buffs.
It's basically like having your lv4 know only three spells.
For me life is all about 6 dice dwellers. People rarely bring life to tournaments now, so people forget how completely bent this spell can be: it just threatens everything on the board by its presence on a wizard.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by WizzyWarlock »

Mollesvinet wrote:Curse of anraheir is insane when combined with eagle blocking, especially against frenzied units... Do you really want to charge? You will lose 1/3 of the unit from charging and another 1/3 from overrunning. That usually beats dwellers below, as most priority targets will have high strength anyway.
What a cool idea! That had never occurred to me. My Eagles have just become even better. :evil:
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by SmithF »

Good article, it will certainly help out the newcomers!

Being a fan of a combat-oriented force, I have mainly used the Lore of Beasts.

I'll echo the comment of Drstrangelove concerning the Flock of Doom. It is an excellent spell and one that I rarely leave behind;

One of the biggest threats out there for a combat wood elf force (one that uses treemen, for example) are warmachines. Sure, one can shoot at them with Glade Guard or try and hunt them down with eagles and fast cavalry; but when it comes to T7, whether you're throwing 2d6 s2 attacks or 2d6 s5 it is the same thing. Throw enough and something will stick.

With such a low casting cost, a 2 dice casting is quite safe, even for the boosted version (one that will allow you to stay out of retaliation range). With more dangerous spells such as Amber spear and savage beast of horros to worry about, most opponents let the flock of doom through. It has on numerous occasions dealt with cannons, hellblasters, terrorgheists, phoenixes and pretty much anything in the tomb king book (including the casket of Souls, twice!). Like the OP says, skinks are also prime targets due to their low toughness; curiously, though, a Great Unclean One is also a great target with just a 5+ ward save.

All in all, it is an excellent spell to begin your magic phase with; in the course of the game, even a couple of wounds will make a difference at one point or another.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by LandonElf »

Thanks for a great article. Im enjoying your posts more and more. Dont let the lack of community population discourage you from more tactica posts in the future.

The life vs beasts debate has racked many a woodelf brain over the years. Both are great lores. Here are a few suggestions to help the beffuddled woodelf player decide.

Beasts
PROs-

Amber Spear. Makes any single model afraid to move within range.
Wyssans. Best sig in the game. Best used on Treekin or Dryads.
Curse. Our most underestimated spell. Stops hordes dead in their tracks. Similar kill rate to Dwellers with a longer range and much cheaper cost.

CONs

Character buffs require characters to be in range. Also, requires characters lol.
Kadons, Panns, and Flock are only useful for specific situations. Can be useless some games.
Curse can be mitigated by ur opponent not marching/charging.

Life
PROs

Dwellers is like a nuclear deterrant. People will avoid coming in range and make mistakes.
Regrowth, especially buffed and/or on Treekin will crush your opponents morale
Not all the spells are great, but they are all always helpful.
People will waste alot of dispel/power dice dispelling Thrones.

CONs
No offensive options if you dont get dwellers
Most spells are meh without Throne.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by godswearhats »

@Mollesvinet: that is possibly the best use of Curse I've heard of. Fantastic, thanks! I regularly play against Forsaken, and occasionally against Ripperdactyls. It might also work against models with Predatory Fighter ...

As for Flock of Doom, thanks everyone for letting me know about it vs War Machines. Unfortunately, my regular opponents don't fall into the camp that uses weak war machines like that. I'm usually facing things like Hellcannon, Skullcannon and Soul Grinder when it comes to artillery, so I've not really seen the need for Flock. I will edit the original post and put it one pip above Pann's pelt, and add the War Machines usage. I will also be trying it out more regularly!
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by popisdead »

No Wood Elves cannot make as good of use of Flock as say Beastmen can (Hagtree Fetish).

I feel Life is useless these days. Spam archers and Dwellers doesn't work well vs non-infantry.

Curse of Anraheir, DawnSpear, Fimbulwinter, and Glittering Scales are far more useful than anything in Life.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Ioreth Starmantle »

A lot of people are praising Beasts and I feel compelled to be the dissenting voice.

Beasts is a bad lore. A really, really poor lore. I have tried to use Beasts... I've tried to love the Lore of Beasts, and with armies which synergies with the Lore so much better than Wood Elves. Naturally, I have failed because it's such a poor array of pointless tricks.

It continues to baffle me that any mildly competitive general would choose it over Life, which may no longer be the powerhouse it was a year or two ago, but is still an excellent Lore..

The sole good spell is Curse of Anraheir. It has two mediocre spells in Wyssan's and the Amber Spear.

One good spell and two acceptable spells are not odds I'd like to play, even with a level four wizard.

Compare the Lore of life, which is stronger even if one doesn't manage to get the throne... There is no comparison. Even with its weak Signature Spell, Life is the better lore in all situations.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by godswearhats »

@Ioreth: I'm happy to have someone who thinks Beasts is a poorer choice than Life. What I'd like to see more are reasons why. You've said most of the spells are bad, but not why you think they are bad. You've also not said why you think the Life spells are better. And if you can provide examples of play where you've used them, that would be even better still!

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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Ioreth Starmantle »

It has two nigh worthless spells (Flock and Transformation).

My experience with Beasts comes largely from Bretonnians. An army with strong defence but lacklustre offence, which should synergise well with the 'offencive' Lore of Beasts. It does, but Beasts is still bad even under the ideal case of all-mounted Bretonnians.

Being a fluff player I actually take a Beasts Damsel fairly often. I take one, I don't use her though. She's in my list, in my army on the table, but come the magic phase I look at my Beasts cards and too often realise there's no spell there worth risking a misscast to use.

And as I say, best case scennario. Wood Elves would seem to get less still from the lore.

I suspect Flock of Doom exists solely to be swapped for the Signature spell, I cannot imagine ever risking a miscast to cast such a worthless spell. Two dicing flock you have a 1/36 chance of miscasting. for a spell so feeble that's too damned high. Attempt it on one die and break your concentration 1/3 times.

Transformation of Kaddon has a hypothetical use: as magical defence, by forcing the enemy to spend power dice disspelling during his phase, but apart from that, it's just a good way to get a wizard killed. And that's assuming your bunker is in or near combat. If so, you have bigger problems thwn mere magical defence.


Wyssan's Wildform is goodish, assuming you're within the far-too-short range. The casting value (even with Lore Attribute) is too high by a point or two. For an army which lives or dies by movement and shooting a short-range combat buff is very, very situational.

+1 STR and T is nice, but when you include the high casting value, short range and the enormous drag factor of taking the Lore of Beasts, it's at-best a mediocre spell.


Pan's Impenetrable Pelt, same deal, too high a casting value for an effect that Life can grant you much better.


Amber Spear! Finally a spell both worth casting, and not done better by some other Lore. Always use the boosted version. What this spell has to do with Beasts is anyone's guess.

Curse of Anrehier The other good spell, this is a nice one, hope you roll it or taking Lore of Beasts was a complete waste.

Savage Beast of Horross - situationaly useful, but when those situations come up, the enemy will certainly scroll it, so you'd better miscast, and nobody wants to bet all their marbles on a miscast at just the right moment.

And the enemy will scroll it because you have the Lore of Beasts so there's no other spell here that's worth using a scroll on.


When I have the Beasts in my army I too often feel I have nothing useful to cast and when the enemy has it I too often feel there's nothing I need to dispel.


When casting magic, one must always weigh to a nicety the advantage of the spell, the probability of miscast and the likelyhood of being dispelled. Consider these things and realise that Beasts is bad in a vacuum, but worse still compared to Life.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Drstrangelove »

Some of those points I agree with to a degree but you are massively underestimating wildform. It doesn't really have synergies as it works on any unit in the game at any time. It is the only spell in the game that simultaneously buffs attack and defends against every potential damage bar initiative tests.
How is it that you ever end up in a "I have nothing to cast" situation running beasts?!!!
Wildform, Amber spear and curse (and flock, but apparent everyone hates it....I find it perfect against skullcannons, hellcannons and soul grinders: protected normally by high toughness and melee ability, which flock cares for not) have targets every turn of the game. No joke.

Of course there must be people that agree with you: Swedish comp thinks beasts is very weak. But I think that's mostly on the basis of there being three very situational spells in the mix. The other 4 are rock solid, and one if them you are guaranteed to have as it's the sig (unlike life where the sig is not the first spell you pick at all)
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by godswearhats »

Thanks for the comments. Can you expand on what makes lore of Life great?
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Mollesvinet »

I think its dangerous to base your view on the lores by experiences from another army, each army has different strengths and weaknesses. For example bretonnia have trebuchets and heroic killing blow, so the amber spear is less important here. Also you can easily take your mages into combat and have durable characters, making the healing aspect easier to use. Finally, the mages are in the middle of expensive cavalry units full of characters so miscasts are feared even more.

I am also curious about the viewpoints on each spell, i am a fan of diversity and usually try lots of different army builds. Problem is, everytime i try Lore of Life i always end up missing Lore of Beasts.

As i see it earth blood, awekening of the wood (morning wood) and shield of thorns are all lacklusters. Maybe if shield of thorns counted for combat res, but it doesn't.

Then there is throne of vines, I really dislike casting a spell which have no direct effect. As said earlier, will often put you on the same number of power dice as opponent has dispell dice.

Flesh to stone is nice, but with msu style armies the enemy can usually just select another target unless they are already in close combat. Wyssan can often reach the same or similar defensive level when cast on tree spirits, but in turn will also increase damage output.

Regrowth is very nice, but is only really worth it on treemen and treekin. Sure its nice to regain 4 glade guard, but not exactly game changing. If a wounded treeman is nearby, your opponent will definately dispell this.

Dwellers is nice, especially if you get lucky and make an opponent roll a 6 with an otherwise immortal character. Against most blocks curse of anraheir is better, let them charge to take as many casualties or more as they would with dwellers. Then they get the minus 1 to hit. Then even if they win, they have to sacrifice even more if they want to attempt to run you down. Sniping characters is awesome though, but i play comped so it won't happen for me.

The lore attribute of life is much better than beasts though, however I have had an amber spear go off only because of the attribute :)

Overall i think its too easy prioritize dispells against life and it has too many spells which arent useful. I am not posting these opinions to prove you wrong, but in the hope that enlighten me on these points.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Sheba yoma »

Not got a lot to add other than thanks!
ive my first game with wood elves on Saturday and from feeling a bit dejected about AL i now want to take it!
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by kakwah »

Reservered for a long post when I am at work tonight.
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Ioreth Starmantle
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Ioreth Starmantle »

Mollesvinet wrote:I think its dangerous to base your view on the lores by experiences from another army, each army has different strengths and weaknesses. For example bretonnia have trebuchets and heroic killing blow, so the amber spear is less important here. Also you can easily take your mages into combat and have durable characters, making the healing aspect easier to use. Finally, the mages are in the middle of expensive cavalry units full of characters so miscasts are feared even more.

I play all-mounted Bretonnians. No Trebuchets and sometimes no HKB. I never run my Damsels in a lance (too dangerous). Bretonnian characters are durable which would seem to make Life's healing and defencive strengths less useful, yet it still is the better Lore.

That's why I feel comparing these two armies is valid. Bretonnia synergises almost perfectly with Beasts, life does not. Yet I still feel life is the better Lore for that army.

That being the case, when one considers Wood Elves... The army has much, much weaker synergy with Beasts and much greater synergy with Life. How then can I think that Beasts might be the better choice here.


I am also curious about the viewpoints on each spell, i am a fan of diversity and usually try lots of different army builds. Problem is, everytime i try Lore of Life i always end up missing Lore of Beasts.

Why?

I mean specifically, you find yourself, come the magic phase, looking at your cards and feeling that the options you have a fewer than you might have if you'd selected Beasts? This is a strange idea to me.


As i see it earth blood, awekening of the wood (morning wood) and shield of thorns are all lacklusters. Maybe if shield of thorns counted for combat res, but it doesn't.

Earthblood is a mediocre spell. It's perhaps a touch weaker than Wyssan's, but only a touch. Good thing too. Life's such a strong Lore that it would be distinctly overpowered if it had a great Signature. Nevertheless, it is a useful spell. Lifebloom alone is worth an 8+ to cast sometimes. Though if I want Lifebloom alone I'll choose Awakening first.

Shield of Thorns is the weakest spell in the Lore and always my first choice to swap for Earthblood. It still has the Lifebloom effect, though, so it's still worth casting sometimes.


Then there is throne of vines, I really dislike casting a spell which have no direct effect. As said earlier, will often put you on the same number of power dice as opponent has dispell dice.

It has a colossal direct effect: 2+ to ignore miscast & yes, Lifebloom. Yes, the Throne costs power dice, but since Life is a cheaper Lore to cast than Beasts I feel that's not a profound weakness when comparing the two.

In any event, Throne is not required.


Flesh to stone is nice, but with msu style armies the enemy can usually just select another target unless they are already in close combat. Wyssan can often reach the same or similar defensive level when cast on tree spirits, but in turn will also increase damage output.

Yes, the enemy may simply select another target. This is a weakness shared by all single-target buffs, including Wyssan's. Flesh to Stone has a lower casting value, double the range and Lifebloom on its side, however.

You specifically mention Tree Spirits. In my experience they do not need much help to kill things, but with only average toughness and a poor not-quite-ward-save the Toughness boost of flesh to Stone would seem much more useful.


Regrowth is very nice, but is only really worth it on treemen and treekin. Sure its nice to regain 4 glade guard, but not exactly game changing. If a wounded treeman is nearby, your opponent will definately dispell this.

And if you find a really good chance to use a Beasts spell, the opponent will dispel that. The difference is I probably have a 2+ against miscast, so I feel confident throwing power dice around, and if I am dispeled I still have three other spells, all with Lifebloom to patch up said Treeman.

Dwellers is nice, especially if you get lucky and make an opponent roll a 6 with an otherwise immortal character. Against most blocks curse of anraheir is better, let them charge to take as many casualties or more as they would with dwellers. Then they get the minus 1 to hit. Then even if they win, they have to sacrifice even more if they want to attempt to run you down. Sniping characters is awesome though, but i play comped so it won't happen for me.

Dwellers ignores Ward Saves (for example the famous WoC 3++ rerolling 1s Ward and the Banner of the World Dragon) and works against Ethereal units.

I've already said Curse is the best spell in the Lore, and it is a good spell, but one spell cannot save the Lore. Especially if you want to compare it to the legendary Dwellers.


The lore attribute of life is much better than beasts though, however I have had an amber spear go off only because of the attribute :)

Overall i think its too easy prioritize dispells against life and it has too many spells which arent useful. I am not posting these opinions to prove you wrong, but in the hope that enlighten me on these points.
If you feel I'm wrong, you should try to prove it. It's the only way I'll learn.


I think your own words are telling, though 'i think its too easy prioritize dispells against life'. I agree.

When my opponent has Life I know which spells are threatening at any given time. When he has Beasts I don't really care, none of them will have much of an impact on the game.


Not that I really ever meant to argue the relative merits of Life and Beasts.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Mollesvinet »

Useful spells from beasts:

Wild form (offense AND defense boost)
amber spear (good for single characters, monsters and every other thing we have problems killing)
curse of anraheir (damage potential of dwellers AND a debuff which influence combat res)
savage beast of horros (deadly in challenges, deadly with multiple characters)
flock of doom (good for warmachines or monsters with no armor save)

Useful spells from life:

Regrowth, dwellers below, flesh to stone

With throne of vines as a prerequisite, is easy not to get the desired spells for life. This means that there are usually only one or two important spells for your opponent to dispell. Beast magic have more useful spells, one of the most useful being the signature spell. Even if you remove flock of doom from the list, then there is still a much greater chance to get the spells you want.

Wild form beats flesh to stone in my opinion, not only does strength make it easier to wound but it also reduces enemy armor save. Yes flesh to stone is awesome combined with throne, but compare it to wyssan + beast of horros and i know which one i would prefer in most cases. Comparing wild form and earthblood is even worse, i mean you mainly need the regen saves in close combat or on your tree-spirits, but those are places your mage don't want to go or can't go.

Once melee hits, beasts have 2 augs and 1 hex, meaning the enemy is forced to let some of them through. With life there is only flesh to stone which influences combat res directly, though lifebloom can increase attacks through ressurecting treekin i suppose.

Yes dwellers can kill the WoC 3++, but the chance of him failing his strength test is actually lower than his chance of failing his ward against amber spear. Dwellers is nice against banner of the world dragon, but curse can do almost as well i you force them to charge/pursue. Both beast spells are cheaper and one have much longer range.

Beast spells are not expensive, only upgraded amber spear costs more than 10+ to cast unless you are out of position. With life you have to first use two dice for throne, then you probaly want 6 dice for dwellers in most cases. This leaves a maximum of 4 dice, usually less.

I'm not saying that Lore of Life is useless or anything, it is just my personal opinion that beast magic is more versatile and has better synergy with our army. Wood elves are all about "a good offense is a good defense", and beast magic fits perfectly with this. I would like to hear how you usually prioritize your spells and which spells you try to get, hopefuly you can teach me to give life some more credit.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Ioreth Starmantle »

Truth is, I don't use Life much with my Bretonnians. I use Heavens* for my Level 4 and if I have a backup caster, it's 50:50 Life or Beasts.

With a level two the spells I really want are Regrowth and Flesh to Stone. I feel Dwellers is too all-or-nothing, to reliant on fickle dice and frankly, not very fun. You're right, it normally needs to be cast on 6 dice.

For a level 4 the spells I want are those, plus Throne and Dwellers. I mightn't even cast it, but it has a psychological impact. People save dispel dice for it.

I originally stuck my oar in here not to praise Life but only to damn Beasts.


*I tell you this, if the rumours are true and Wood Elves get access to all 8 Lores in the new book, it's Heavens and Shadow all the way for me. Life and Beasts can both go hang...
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by WizzyWarlock »

Ioreth Starmantle wrote:Not that I really ever meant to argue the relative merits of Life and Beasts.
I think in the case of Wood Elves, the lore of Beasts is a much better option purely because it fills the holes the army is missing, especially with the current meta. Let's throw a few examples around:

Wyssans Wildform
In a tougher, stronger army, this spell doesn't really help much, so I can understand where you're coming from, but with the Wood Elves that extra point of S & T makes a world of difference. Even on your basic Dryads, they're now S5/T5 which means 2's instead of 3's to wound against a standard T3 model. In the current meta which is full of T4 / 1+ armour save models, that means wounding on 3's instead of 4's and a save of 3+ instead of 2+, which makes it a 33% chance of failing a save. The chances of inflicting damage is greatly increased just from that +1S. Now move that Wyssans across to the Treekin who were already S5/T5 and you're again wounding on 2's and the saves are instead a 4+, a 50% chance of failing a save. In the case of the +1T, because of the poor saves the Wood Elves can bring, a simple 5+ ward save with Dryads plus a 4+ armour save for Treekin, that extra T means less wounds to save against, meaning more survivability.

The Flock of Doom
I only ever take this spell if I'm facing an army with artillery, because the massive range means I can target those things from pretty much anywhere on the battlefield. It's especially useful because most good generals screen their artillery behind skirmishers or other units, which makes shooting them with Glade Guard extra hard because of the -2 cover modifier. The Flock never misses and usually only takes one or two dice to cast.

Pann's Impenetrable Pelt
In a character heavy list, this spell can really help to keep those characters alive. It's not such a great boost to the average Treeman Ancient, but on an Alter Kindred who's charged in with a Great Weapon, it could be the difference between him causing big damage and having him die before his initiative even comes around. It's a great little spell for a character heavy army, but otherwise I'd be picking a different spell.

The Amber Spear
As I said in opening, the Lore of Beasts fills the holes in the army. This one covers the missing artillery, giving you a mobile S10 bolt thrower that causes D6 wounds per hit on the boosted version. But really, if you're casting this, you're casting the boosted version. I've had this spell do some incredible things, from taking a unit of Demigryphs from 4 models to 1 in one hit, to taking out an enemy Treeman also in one hit. To me, this is the most required spell in the list, because the current meta is full of those 1+ save, multi-wound models that the Wood Elves otherwise struggle with. Of course, at times it can do nothing, carefully lining up your wizard to flank the monstrous cavalry, rolling 6 dice to cast and having a success, then immediately rolling a 1 to wound is incredibly frustrating, but when it works this spell does the business. I would never leave home without it.

The Curse of Anraheir
The movement part of this spell is dependant on how you run the rules of terrain. I've been in tournaments that have said open ground is not a type of terrain for this spell, and other tournaments that have - I'm actually at one tomorrow that has ruled against it, which is frustrating but I can deal with that because the other part of the spell also does wonders for the Wood Elves. Like I mentioned in Wyssans, the Wood Elves suffer from poor saves and low toughness, so anything that stops you having to make saves at all is highly desirable, with a -1 to hit just adding to the survivability. If this is mixed in with an unsuccessful Fear test, such as from the Dryads, this means the enemy are now hitting on 6's. Throw on a Wyssan's and you begin to see how survivable this lore actually makes the Wood Elves.

The Savage Beast of Horros
This spell depends heavily on the list you're taking, but with the current meta I tend to go a bit character heavy, possibly taking a Treeman Ancient, Eagle Rider, an Alter Kindred with Great Weapon - it depends on how I design the army. This spell boosts the damage output of those characters to ridiculous levels. Let's put that Treeman Ancient against a unit of Demigryphs - 5 attacks at S6, needing 3's to hit and 2's to wound, so maybe 3 attacks get through with 2 wounding. Those 2 are saved on a 4+ so 1 wound goes through. That's nothing to a unit of Demigryphs. Now add Savage Beast and you have 8 attacks at S9, again hitting on 3's, so about 5 get through, 2's to wound nets you around 4 wounds, but those 4 wounds now can't be saved against because it's a -6 save. So you've killed 1 Demigryph and wounded another instead of causing just 1 wound. That makes a hell of a difference. This is the same with all my characters, I generally get them Great Weapons to boost them to S6, which gives a 50/50 save on a 1+ armour unit, then throw on a Savage Beast if possible to really cause the pain.

Transformation of Kadon
This is the spell I tend to switch out for Wyssan's as it's a spell I'd only use as a 'last stand' sort of move. In the Wood Elf army it removes your level 4 bonus to dispels, stops you casting all those lovely other spells that you need, and also will very likely end in your wizards death when the next round the opponent dispels it and your naked mage is standing there in front of a unit of death dealers. If we had Beasts on Level 2's then I'd certainly leave it on one of those, as a level 2 mage is very cheap, especially without any equipment, while the potential damage from a Mountain Chimera charge could be just devastating. But unfortunately, we can't, so this gets removed for Wyssans.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by Mollesvinet »

@Ioreth Starmantle

With ETC 2014 you can already use all the lores from the BRB. I favor shadow like you, but death instead of heavens. Check out these reports how i have used it, if you want to:

death: http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=25723

shadow: http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=25673
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25736
(second is just the list, will play tomorrow)

Light: http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25691 (no battle rep)
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by chickenbane »

I had a game last week using a level 4 Shadow & a level 2 Beast mage that went very well against skaven. It was a trial list for a competition next year, I'll be putting up a battle report for it next week.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by WizzyWarlock »

Had to go out so never finished my post..

In comparison to the Lore of Beasts, I find Lore of Life to be a much worse choice for Wood Elves with the one exception of a Triple Treeman list.

Earth Blood
A 5+ Regeneration on the Wizard and his unit, 4+ if you have Throne of Vines up. This really doesn't help much at all, as really you only want the regeneration on a unit in combat, and if you have your Spellweaver in combat then you've made a mistake somewhere along the way. This is akin to Transformation of Kadon, where you only really need to use it as a 'last stand', because otherwise, why are you using it? Okay, if you're facing an artillery heavy army it might be useful, but otherwise it's not worth the casting dice. Not good for a signature spell.

Awakening of the Wood
D6 S4 hits or S6 with Throne of Vines. This goes up to 2D6 if the target is even partially inside woods. While the D6 S6 is nice, the D6 S4 is laughable at best. See my previous post about the current meta - high saves and high toughness is everywhere, from Chaos Chariots to Steam Tanks and Demigryphs, D6 S4 is going to do nothing except to foot troops, of which there's so many that an average 1 killed (average 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save) isn't even going to bother drawing out dispel dice. Anyone with intelligence knows not to go near woods when playing Wood Elves, so you can pretty much forget the 2D6 except in rare circumstances.

Flesh to Stone
+2 T or +4 T with Throne of Vines. This is nice, but all it does is prolong the inevitable. Without a boost to strength the Wood Elves are still just bashing into an immovable object. This spell is most useful on large units, where the rank, banner and wound bonus all add up, while the enemy are unable to do damage in return thus end up taking a break test. Unfortunately, the only big unit the Wood Elves get are Eternal Guard which are horribly overpriced and in desperate need of a S/T boost, thus again we turn to Wyssan's Wildform. If you use this to toughen a unit such as Dryads and you're fighting anything with a rank bonus, chances are you're still taking a break test even with the T6-8. I don't find this at all useful in a Wood Elf army.

Throne of Vines
Gives a 2+ to ignore miscasts and makes the other spells a bit better. But everyone knows this so its the first spell they want to dispel, so you need to put more dice in to cast it to try and force it through, which means less dice to use on the other spells. And then the opponent just dispels it in his phase anyway. It's a spell that makes so much sense to get, but one which is pointless and actually a hindrance to have.

Shield of Thorns
2D6 S3 hits. I've mentioned it before but the current meta is just going to laugh in the face of S3 and as mentioned previously, Throne of Vines is a waste of time so instead of being boosted to S4, which again is nothing, it's stuck at S3 perhaps doing a couple of wounds if you're fighting basic foot troops, before being dispelled the following phase.

Regrowth
This is one of the few spells that are actually worth bothering with in this list, but like I said, only really in a Triple Treeman list, as a couple of Dryads or Glade Guard being regrown really isn't going to make a difference, while adding wounds to the Treeman keeps it alive a lot longer. Besides that, D3+1 wounds isn't worth mentioning when talking about Glade Guard, but adding 2-3 wounds back to the damaged Treeman means another few rounds of combat for it (dependant on enemy unit). I don't think I need to mention the bonus that Throne of Vines gives the spell as you know my thoughts on Throne of Vines.

The Dwellers Below
The best spell in the lore by far, a S test for every model or they're removed from play. If you have this spell then Throne of Vines is actually worth having, as you can make your magic phase about 2 spells. Throw a ton of dice at Throne of Vines and hope for a miscast, ignore that on a 2+, then throw the remaining dice at Dwellers and again hope for a miscast. If the plan works you have an unstoppable Dwellers Below and ignore the miscasts. Unfortunately, this is the only use I find for this lore in the Wood Elf army, but only when used in the previous meta that involved multiple horde units, as they were very hard for Wood Elves to break. In the world of 1+ save, multi-wound, high toughness units, I don't think Lore of Life really has any place in a Wood Elf army.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Post by popisdead »

In a way I like that this discussion is happening and relatively positive (if only 'I feel' vs logical expiations) and I really like that it isn't internet flaming.

But still, ?!?!?!?
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