Rethinking Glade Riders.

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HeroZero
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Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by HeroZero »

I find myself bringing them more and more.
I think they have a bad reputation.
Let's start a new thread since the last one is kinda outdated.

* I'm bringing 14 to my next game btw.
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by Moose123 »

How are you running them?
2x7?
1x6+1x8?
1x9+1x5?

Please share your experience with the rest of us, it will help make the thread interesting :D

I really want wood elf all mounted lists to be viable, but with all the cavalry running around now, (both monstrous and generic,) it just won't work. Against VC or skaven it would work very well, because these armies are still infantry based even with the meta shift.

Another thing, if you want to add a fast moving unit to your standard army wild riders and even warhawk riders are better. Because they hit harder in close combat.
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by HeroZero »

I bring them in two units of 7.
I bring them in support of other fast movers.
Glade riders are a turn 1 threat.
I find the key to victory is early pressure.
If I can remove a threat on the first turn and threaten rear charges my opponent is forced to react.
Reactivity is the key to losing.

Yes the vast majority of my points are spent on core. I have no issues with that.
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by Moose123 »

Our core is the best part of our army, that's where glade guard and dryads come from :roll:
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by ElBacone »

It sounds awesome but rear charges doesn't do a lot. The combat bonus of +2 won't come in effect because the enemy unit will still be steadfast, meaning they will test on unmodified Ld. Only advantage I see is that you will get less attacks back in return as he can't make support attacks. That advantage lasts one turn until when he combat reforms. So unless you charge the unit on a second facing (preventing the unit making a combat reform) I don't see the unit of Glade Riders last more then one turn. That is to say, they won't get butchered when they charge or driven off by static combat resolution alone.

Ex. 7 riders charge in the rear, say 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound 5+ armour save, that means aprox 1.5 wounds inflicted, that's 4 combat res for the glade riders. The other unit has 4 ranks + banner = 5 combat res. In this case they have everything going for them and still lose. And if you charge in the front with say treekin or Wild riders (to complement the theme) it get's slightly better, but not a lot in my opinion.
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by Gerner »

While they are tremendous underpowered for their point cost, they are very fun to play with.

Yesterday I had a list containing 3x7 + 2x8 glade riders. All three characters went into the a unit of 7 each. So it was 5 blocks of 8 each.
I also had a unit of dryads, a unit of 6 waywatchers, a unit of 10 wild riders and two units of three warhawks.

We play with a comp that gives the GR glade guard bows (str. 4 on short range) making them somewhat better, the problem for he is that with an armour save of 6+ and toughness 3, they die as easily as the glade guards when within range. I ended up focusing the wrong side of the board (mainly his stegadon and two cold one heroes (all which I killed)), instead of just whipping out his razordons and his skinks first.
In the beginning it was really hard to manoeuvre around because both my opponent and I had so many things on the board, but in the three last turns it opened more up and suddenly everything was more lined up and I could manoeuvre enough to really pain him. Unfortunatly it was too late, and he was by 336 points (in a 2600 match).
Looking back the glade riders performed better than my glade guards would have, because of the mobility. The warhawks was pretty much a let down, even though their skirmishing helped a lot versus his shooting.

Proes:
Faster than most things, and I think really good in small games where you have more room on the table. Remember to hide in forests and behind stuff to avoid getting shot at.
Good shooters, mostly hitting on 4+ because of long range.
6+ armoursave is better than none.
Can easily catch fleeing units or charge small remaining units with str 4. Remember the horse attacks.
Good at making feigned flight, just running back and forth shooting arrows. Placing a tougher unit just behind them can make you go further if you roll very low on your flee roll.
When a few is left can be used to redirect.
Easy to avoid charges.
Very fun to play with.

Cons
Most shooting have a threat range of 24' making it hard to stay out of that, while still doing enough damage on your opponents army. It is hard to keep on the table, having room to flee and be outside their threat range. I wish the tables where bigger..
Only toughness 3 and armour save 6+. Ellyrian reavers have a 4+ armour save and are fast cavalry. It makes those bow shots, blow pipes and what not look a lot less intimidating for the reavers.
Not skirmishers, so easier to shot to pieces.
You will be surprised how little 18 inches is.
Strength 3 shots doesn't kill a whole lot.
Very hard to play with.
Overpriced.

If wild riders had shooting I would take them, because charges let you into bad places.

You rarely win big, but it is fun to annoy your opponent and to have so many movement options.

I will write more later. Feel free to ask. :)
Feel like helping me out? Look at my army list thread: http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25040 :)
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by HeroZero »

ElBacone wrote:It sounds awesome but rear charges doesn't do a lot. The combat bonus of +2 won't come in effect because the enemy unit will still be steadfast, meaning they will test on unmodified Ld. Only advantage I see is that you will get less attacks back in return as he can't make support attacks. That advantage lasts one turn until when he combat reforms. So unless you charge the unit on a second facing (preventing the unit making a combat reform) I don't see the unit of Glade Riders last more then one turn. That is to say, they won't get butchered when they charge or driven off by static combat resolution alone.

Ex. 7 riders charge in the rear, say 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound 5+ armour save, that means aprox 1.5 wounds inflicted, that's 4 combat res for the glade riders. The other unit has 4 ranks + banner = 5 combat res. In this case they have everything going for them and still lose. And if you charge in the front with say treekin or Wild riders (to complement the theme) it get's slightly better, but not a lot in my opinion.
Just to.address the issues here.
Glade riders charge a rear of a human equivalent unit
7 Spear attacks is 4.33 hits, 3.1 wounds..
Horrses should inflict 4.33 hits and 1.6 wounds.
So about 4 wounds if they had a 6+ save somehow
Human equivalent unit swings.back.
Say a full horde
5 hits, 2.5 wounds.
So let's say 2 on a lucky 6+

Our combat rez
Rear +2
Charge +1
Banner +1
Wounds 4

His combat rez
Three ranks +3
Banner +1
Wounds 2

Up by plus 2 to the riders.
He will obviously steadfast, but there's an exceptionally small chance of flight.

Most importantly The unit is now effectively out of the game for at least a turn
You can then combo Charge ( you should have already)
If he reforms he exposes his rear to more of your army
If they win and you break, they can't really pursue without being pulled further out of position.

Gotta stop thinking that GR will live. They won't.
They are meant to keep your opponent playing on his side of the table.
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by Wooster Shooster »

Glade riders are really cool I will agree, but the problem is simply the points. For the cost of a great eagle you only get two glade riders. For less than a minimum sized glade rider unit I can have two eagles, add on a unit of wild riders for a bit of high speed punch and I have what I was getting out of the glade riders for way less points (assuming two or three units of GR minimum so they can have a chance of making it anywhere).

I was playing a lot against dark elves for a while and the dark elf equivalent have better armour and better shooting for 25% less points, resulting in me simply dropping the GR from the list in favour of eagles and WR.

Also, the wood elves in particular are so good at clearing up chaff, that it seems silly to invest so many points in our own overpriced chaff when we can simply take more bows to deny our opponent, then swoop in with eagles.
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by Gerner »

Wooster Shooster wrote:Glade riders are really cool I will agree, but the problem is simply the points. For the cost of a great eagle you only get two glade riders. For less than a minimum sized glade rider unit I can have two eagles, add on a unit of wild riders for a bit of high speed punch and I have what I was getting out of the glade riders for way less points (assuming two or three units of GR minimum so they can have a chance of making it anywhere).

I was playing a lot against dark elves for a while and the dark elf equivalent have better armour and better shooting for 25% less points, resulting in me simply dropping the GR from the list in favour of eagles and WR.

Also, the wood elves in particular are so good at clearing up chaff, that it seems silly to invest so many points in our own overpriced chaff when we can simply take more bows to deny our opponent, then swoop in with eagles.
I could understand if you compared them to the high elves ellyrian reavers, but the dark riders aren't in my opinion better.
They are two points cheaper. You get armour piercing, light armour and multiple shots.
But you loose asrai archery, 6'' range and get an additional minus 1 to hit because of multi shot.

So you can either get 10 shots that hits on 6's (3's, then -1 for long range, -1 for moving and -1 for multiple shots). You get armour piercing.
Glade Riders get 5 shots that hits on 4's (3's, then -1 for long range). Have 6'' longer range.

They way I play glade riders, I prefer them over dark riders to be honest. That said I can see how Dark Riders easily can kill glade riders.

I will agree that they are very over costly, but I don't think you should compare them to an eagle. They can do a lot of stuff eagles can't. Shoot, vanguard, feigned flight, etc. Also eagles are good, you can only take two, and often one if you play in a comp system.

The problem I face with Glade Guards is that I can only shoot at targets for a few turns, then he gets into close combat with either other stuff or them, and they aren't exactly manoeuvrable. If I could upgrade them all to scouts then I would take them over GR.

A tactic I tried was to when the unit fell unto low number of models then run them as far as way to point denial. Then he could run after them or try to kill the stuff that killed him.
One or two units of glade riders aren't going to help you, but if most of your army is fast cavalry your opponent will hate you. :thumbsup:
Feel like helping me out? Look at my army list thread: http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25040 :)
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by popisdead »

HeroZero wrote: Gotta stop thinking that GR will live. They won't.
I would be pleasantly surprised if people ever thought they would live. Mine always died in previous editions but they served me well.

Can a mod sticky this thread? It is already better than the previous GR thread.
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by Gerner »

HeroZero wrote:Gotta stop thinking that GR will live. They won't.
They are meant to keep your opponent playing on his side of the table.
Well, I disagree. If my opponent move his troops into my side of the table I just move the glade riders unto his side - all while I'm shooting at him (this isn't as easy as I make it out to be).

I'm not saying that they are a tough unit, but their vastly superior movement lets them out of most dangers while still able to annoy the enemy with arrows. You can easily set them up as flank charges or bait your enemy to charge them and then make feigned flight.

Compared to glade guards who can only do a musician reform and move 2,5 inches back. If you fail that reform you can't even shoot and move back.
Maybe it is just me who can't figure out how to play with glade guards?

I will agree that they are weak and not optimal, but what in our army is optimal and not weak?
Feel like helping me out? Look at my army list thread: http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25040 :)
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by Taringtoshnir »

Hey guys
I usually field 1 unit of GR as i find they irritate the hell out of my friends as they are scared by the prospect of having to take a panic test on one of their units (small one) i fond in every battle that GR have a use as they are quite adaptable even if it sacrificing themselves
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by overtninja »

I have a bunch of riders I've yet to assemble, I suppose I should give them a go sometime. I'd want to mount them on Fenrisian Wolves though, so it may be a bit before I spend that kind of money on models that perish in whole piles. ;p
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by HeroZero »

Just food for thought on glade riders.

Over priced they maybe, but consider this: if yo bring two units of 7 with musician and standards can easily be in your opponents deployment zone on t1, blocking for the wild riders.

Not one opponent I have ever played doesn't start playing my game when they are looking at 6 units in the deployment zone or near to it turn one.
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by kakwah »

I love glade riders. To me they embody all that wood elves should strive to be, fast, manoeuvrable, unpredictable.

My issue is that fielding 1 or 2 units of 5-7 is that they die very quickly. I think the solution is the same as the solution for treeman. Bring more of them.

Most people will have enough fire power to clear up 1 or 2 small units of fast cav easily. Bring 4 or more units though + eagles, and most opponents will not have the fire power to deal with them before they get behind their lines, and once they do they are relatively protected. I am looking at running 5-6 small units and a couple of great eagles for an upcoming comp.

As much as I would love it I feel that str4 longbows at short range on them would be broken (overpowered), but I would love to see a small points reduction to 18 pointsish

Regards,

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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by HeroZero »

I agree kakwah, I think people see bad results when they don't bring enough GR and don't have enough other support that's also just as fast.

Im running
7 w/musc, standard
7 w/musc, standard
6 Wild riders, musc, standard
6 Wild riders, musc, standard
3 warhawk riders
3 warhawk riders
Great Eagle
Great Eagle

If I deploy well that's a ton in their zone turn 1
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by Moose123 »

Do you run that with other "normal" wood elf units? Or is that your whole army?

If I was going to alter my list to be full Sethayla I would go with something like this,

My eagle highborn, 4+ ward, annoyance, etc.
Spellweaver on steed, most likely lore of life just for dwellers below.
Standard eagle noble
Sorb eagle noble
Cookie cutter bsb on steed

2x5 gr with muso
2x7 gr with muso
2x8 dryads
8 wild riders
2x3 warhawks
2x1 great eagles

Around 2500

Maybe drop the dryads for more horses, if they turn out to give away too many points.

The idea would be to kill warmachines and small units to get around 300 points and then just back off. The eagle characters can kill monstrous cavalry and lone characters as well as monsters if i wantto try for a big win. If all I kill is a 4 warmachines and a few chariots or something then that is enough for a win.
Would probably get incredibly dull for people who play against a list like that because they either can or can't deal with your army, if they can you get tabled if they can't you win by 200 or so points. Not exactly fun for them, but it would be incredibly rewarding for the person using the army!
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by Gerner »

kakwah wrote:As much as I would love it I feel that str4 longbows at short range on them would be broken (overpowered), but I would love to see a small points reduction to 18 pointsish
In the comp I play in they have str4 on short range, but it isn't very strong because you really don't want to be within their shooting range or too close to their charge range. You want to stay out of danger and that often means staying beyond 24 inches, because they only have that weak 6+ armour save. If they had like a 4+ armour save (mounted, shield & light armour) then I wouldn't be too afraid of enemy shooting.
That is also why I think Ellyrian Reavers are stronger and cheaper.
Moose123 wrote: The idea would be to kill warmachines and small units to get around 300 points and then just back off. The eagle characters can kill monstrous cavalry and lone characters as well as monsters if i wantto try for a big win. If all I kill is a 4 warmachines and a few chariots or something then that is enough for a win.
Would probably get incredibly dull for people who play against a list like that because they either can or can't deal with your army, if they can you get tabled if they can't you win by 200 or so points. Not exactly fun for them, but it would be incredibly rewarding for the person using the army!
In my experience people take great care of their warmachines and weaker stuff (unless chaff), so it is a lot harder to do than one expect. That said it gets easier if you first clear most of the chaff and units with a big threat range (fast cavalry, skirmishers, long shooting, warbeasts, etc) and then you can focus on their warmachines.
You will kind of need to open one of his flanks up first, either by baiting him or just shooting it enough for it to die or panic.
I was actual giving a bit up on wood elves because I just got wiped game after game, but then it kind of turned with the cavalry based army. It was a lot more fun to play, because I can really move around and not just stand still and shoot. It gave me a draw as well. :)
Feel like helping me out? Look at my army list thread: http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25040 :)
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by HeroZero »

I agree gerner
Entirely static bow lines are not.only boring, but are.pretty easily dealt with.

One thing I'd like to point out is that Glade Riders can be played horizontally to hold points.

Too often I see poeople set up with their army just straight across from.the opponent.
GR can go literally on the tables edge and still make a contribution. If they have no way of crossing that gap themselves you get to hold on to 375ish points.
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by kakwah »

Wow. If I could get glade riders with s/4 bows at short range, I would fill my entire core with them. I would be making the most of that comp.

Also if anyone really doesn't like their glade riders, feel free to mail them out to me in Australia, :nod: and I`ll take good care of them :P My only issue is that I need like another 20-30 to be able to use them how I want.
Gerner wrote:In the comp I play in they have str4 on short range, but it isn't very strong because you really don't want to be within their shooting range or too close to their charge range. You want to stay out of danger and that often means staying beyond 24 inches, because they only have that weak 6+ armour save. If they had like a 4+ armour save (mounted, shield & light armour) then I wouldn't be too afraid of enemy shooting.
That is also why I think Ellyrian Reavers are stronger and cheaper.
IMO you are playing them wrong. The idea is not to be outside 24 inches, the idea is to be 2 inches away from them. Just on a flank or at the rear where they cannot see you. If they turn you scoot off to the other side, shooting all the time.
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by Gerner »

kakwah wrote:Wow. If I could get glade riders with s/4 bows at short range, I would fill my entire core with them. I would be making the most of that comp.

IMO you are playing them wrong. The idea is not to be outside 24 inches, the idea is to be 2 inches away from them. Just on a flank or at the rear where they cannot see you. If they turn you scoot off to the other side, shooting all the time.
Pretty much what I did.

It depends what you are up against. I have only tried it against a Lizardmen list with a lot of shooting. You don't want to get too close to skinks, razordons and stegadon ancient. They throw out a lot of shots, so it's all about giving him as many penalties as possible. :)
Feel like helping me out? Look at my army list thread: http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25040 :)
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by Kojibear »

Fantastic to see that fellow Asrai are calling to war the greatest riders of all the old world and new.

Take a look inside my army box of late and you will find more fluff than a dozen wee kittens that have just dined on a dozen baby chicks :D

In the campaign we have going in my local gaming group: http://www.nagoyahammer.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=82, I have two Asrai factions making up my forces, the Kinbands of Coeth Mara and The Pine Crags. This means lots of Glade Riders and Hawks/Eagles. In most games with the Coeth Mara forces, I have used two groups of 10 or 12 riders. (We are a relaxed group and a group of 12 is A OK with us :) )

How have the Riders performed? Not too bad actually, when combined with hard hitting elements that push forward and put the pressure on right from the get go. On the flank, these riders have performed rather well as the usual warmachine hunters, at the very least forcing warmachines to fire on the Riders rather than Treekin or Treemen. They sometimes panic the other player into devoting resources away from the centre....(whispers :ninja: ) where they will really need them when my forest spirits reach em :D

Mid field they have tempted charges from the enemy quite nicely and should someone wish to redirect into my Treeman or Treekin, well more often than not that is just fine by me :D Obviously when the enemy falls just short and is left out in the open for my next turn, I am equally happy. Late game, yes the riders have come in for a rear or flank charge to lend a hand. Against the right targets, goblins, Empire, they have performed well in this role late game.

I have sacrificed them to good effect also. A group of Riders with my hero charged a Beastmen Ghorgon Giant who was threatening a flank charge into my Treeman. We can't have that fiendish foul play now can we? No sir! And they fought to a man and even took off a few lucky wounds due to the fact that the giant had very little armour. Remarkable and most of all, epically, the hero went on to slay the chaotic filth born beast. Did I lose a lot of points? Yes. Was I very lucky? Yes, but poor dice rolls don't just affect one player. Could I have used an Eagle? Well, no actually, not enough wounds to keep the Ghorgon occupied.

Glade Riders are great. Great at being annoying :) Great at being right where your opponent wishes they weren't :D Great at dying, too ;)
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by godswearhats »

For some good battle reports at a tournament featuring entirely mounted Wood Elf army (apart from the Alter Highborn), check out Rhuell's battle reports from Alamo GT last year. Here's a link to his army list. You can see the battle reports on the same blog - they make for excellent reading.

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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by Ariell »

The glade riders can also be a good bunker unit for a spellweaver.

+ Fast moving
+ vanguard
+ shooting
+ can bait (flee and then move again)
+ can be joined by a BSB on steed also
+ core points (but that don't usually be the problem)

- expensive
- easy low armour saves
- few modells (see expensive)
- a large unit will be hard to hide

I will try this out the next month I think and tell you how it went :)
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Re: Rethinking Glade Riders.

Post by tmarichards »

Using them as a bunker isn't a great idea, as you end up with a very expensive unit that has very few bodies. This means that you only need to lose a handful of models for the level 4 to not get a LOS, and then once the LOS is gone you're unlikely to have another bunker ready for her to jump into, whereas when the mage is on foot they usually have up to half a dozen units ready to serve that purpose.

In an army that rarely struggles to make up minimum core there's not really any reason to take any Glade Riders until you have maxed out on your Warhawks, who are an objectively superior unit and fill the same role considerably better.
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