Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

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therabbi517
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Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by therabbi517 »

Could this Highborn build work against a hellpit to bring that mother down ?
(P.s I know shooting is probably the best policy however love the idea of the little man taking that bad boy down!!)

Highborn 145 points
Alter kindred 35 points
Rageths wildfire blades 10 points
Potion of strength 20 points
Helm of the hunt 15 points
Fimbulwinters shard 25 points
Total 250 points

On the charge this lord has 7 Strength 7 flaming attacks to take the regen save away I 9 means striking first for sure and in return on turn I charged WS8 means he is hitting me on a 5 with the shard that means 6's to hit back at me !
It is I know all about the charge and a one hit wonder but does anyone think it is a viable build ? I plan for him to sit behind my GG unit shoot at him with them for a couple of turns then get out of the way to reveal this little whirling dervish of attacks !!
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by Woodsinger »

Thats pretty impressive hitting power coming from an elf! But I still don't think it's enough to stop the hellpit.

The few times I crunched it, unless I'm doing something wrong, the Alter doesn't kill it in the first turn, and unfortunately the return attacks are just too brutal, I think. I don't have access to all the rules for the Hellpit though, I was working from memory.

I'm sure someone with more experience can tell you exactly what would happen.
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by Tethlis »

Not all of the Hell Pit's attack modes involve a roll to hit. It has quite a few auto-hitting attack modes as well.

I would trade Fimbulwinter for a standard Ward Save, since that will benefit you regardless of attack mode. Whatever the case, I never try to rely on a single unit dropping the HPA on their own; it's simply too tough to bring down that many wounds, with too many variables in play, and a surviving HPA is not something that any unit wants to tangle with. Soften it from range, then bring overwhelming odds to bear for its last few wounds (like this Highborn.) It's just not worth taking the risk otherwise, in my opinion.
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by Gildesh »

if you are planning on an alter highborn for killing the a bom use the heavy armour with 4+ ward or generic 4+ ward and then potion of strength and wildfire blades
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therabbi517
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by therabbi517 »

Plan was definitely to soften him up with the glade guard with banner of eternal flame first just like the fluff of a courageous little elf sticking the final blows in as for the ward save would consider dropping the shard for talisman of preservation 4+ ward save but it never sits to well with me using heavy armour (armour of destiny etc..) on an elf so will shy away from builds using HA I know it can be a subject of quite some debate and has already been covered many times
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by Shandrakor »

If it doesn't die before it gets to swing back, your Highborn is more than likely dead. It often gets a massive number of attacks as well as auto hitting Thunderstomp vs an Alter Highborn. Really, the best way to deal with the HPA is shooting and finishing it off with high Initiative combat troops like Dryads.
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But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
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therabbi517
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by therabbi517 »

Think my head may have to rule my heart on this occasion and admit defeat :( more glade guard and dryads it is !!!
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by Joelatron »

OR instead of admitting defeat-think a little more broadly at overall army design.

Skaven troops are not so flash hot in combat (it's the magic and warmachines that hurt!) so you need to take advantage of that. Lore of beasts IMO is a better option vs Skaven than lore of life because it buffs you for combat offence + the bolt thrower spell is one of our only real ways to take out a screaming bell.

So with your lvl4 with beasts (and compulsory bsb) add in:

21 GG with flaming banner + other archers -guaranteed to at least put 1 wound on the Abomb (if unlucky) to let the rest of shooting finish him off

and downgrade your original idea: Alter Noble with wildfire blades and stone of rebirth.

Now we have a real way to take those last few annoying wounds off the abomb-buffed with lore of beasts it will be like a hot knife going through butter + a 2+ ward to keep you rocking.
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by Fantasyfreak »

A unit of EG with BotEF should be good enough to drop it.

I played in a tourney against one of the top UK players, after one turn of shooting he pivoted it the other way and it ran off in the opposite direction.
He clearly figured that it would be gone by the time it hit my lines.

Access to a flaming banner has done wonders for us IMO, I wouldn't even bother with the Wildfire Blades.

All depends on what list you're running though I guess, nowadays for me it's all trees with a GG bunker, GG are never anywhere near the front line.
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by Moth »

Yesterday I took out an abomination with a Treeman Ancient, battle standard bearer combo. I was playing 1500 points and I suspected my opponent would bring the abomination so I decided to go for a Treeman Ancient to counter it along with a battle standard bearer with the stone of rebirth and wildfire blades (an alter will of course fullfil the role but I did not want to spend more on characters in such a small game and the battle standard is pretty much mandatory).

They combo charged the thing and I was lucky enough to take three wounds of the thing with the battle standard bearer and then the treeman took it down to one wound (the hellpit did one wound on the treeman) The abomination ran and the battle standard ran it down, making sure it would not come back with his flaming attacks.
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by alvinzimmerman »

What about an alter highborn with the spirit sword and maybe helm of the hunt and foolhardy potion. Using the potion you would charge with 7 attacks at ws 8 and wound automatically regardless of toughness. And he survives and you survive then the leadership roll might kill him off. That is, if you survive...

Do you guys ever use the spirit sword? I used it against a tomb king army, but it could have worked better.
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by therabbi517 »

I originally thought about that combo. I have used the sword before against very low leadership armies picking off my opponents in a goblin army and it was great however against a hellpit Ld 8 as opposed to Ld 10 felt it was to much of a fine line to take and with no flaming attacks hellpit would still get a regen save. Can someone confirm for me does it cause the Leadership based wounds in addition to initial wounds caused, or is it the case that if you cause an unsaved wound your roll D6 add leadership to see how many wounds are caused ?
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by Ember of the Hidden Paths »

it causes wounds, plus more for LD, a better idea, put him in a small EG squad with banner of eternal flame, goodbye abom
also he could go on to kill an enemy character of his choice
One does not simply take a Wild Rider charge...
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by unicorn »

Shandrakor wrote:Really, the best way to deal with the HPA is shooting and finishing it off with high Initiative combat troops like Dryads.
In fact, the best way to deal with HPA is stick an eagle to its side and let it move directly forward in every single turn. For 50 pts, it is pretty safe and reliable way how to force HPA to do... Nothing at all.
Unicorn's conversions (updated 1st Jun)
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BSB, mounted noble, WD noble, Branchie, Alter, Treeman, 12 WR, 10 WD, 10 GR, 10 WW, 5 Dryads, 5 WhR, 6 Tk, Altar of Khaine
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Treeman, 10 WD, dragon lord, Alter, 9 WhR, 5 GR, DE sin, OK Butcher, Beast heroes x5
therabbi517
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by therabbi517 »

M y eagles tend to be tied up fighting his warp lightning cannon crew etc... and I don't just want to tie the thing up I want to destroy it !! I hate them with a passion and won't rest whilst on is still alive on the battlefield !!!
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by untravel »

@unicorn--How does that tactic with the Eagle work exactly? I assume you mean that the HPA can't rotate before it rolls it's random movement if the Eagle is close enough to it's side. I understand that as part of most moves, a unit can't come within 1" of an enemy model, unless charging--so I see how that might work.

However, the Skaven army book says that if the HPA's move takes it into contact with an enemy unit, the move counts as charging--so it could move within 1". Wouldn't that mean if the HPA rotated toward the eagle, the eagle would be charged--taking the impact hits and all the rest?

I guess there is a rule that prevents this, but I don't know what it is. Could you explain more how this tactic works (=what rules prevent the HPA from charging)?

Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing--I just want to be able to explain to my next Skaven opponent why his monster can't get into the fight. :)
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by unicorn »

untravel wrote:@unicorn--How does that tactic with the Eagle work exactly? I assume you mean that the HPA can't rotate before it rolls it's random movement if the Eagle is close enough to it's side. I understand that as part of most moves, a unit can't come within 1" of an enemy model, unless charging--so I see how that might work.
Exactly. You land 1" away from its side. It can not rotate
However, the Skaven army book says that if the HPA's move takes it into contact with an enemy unit, the move counts as charging--so it could move within 1". Wouldn't that mean if the HPA rotated toward the eagle, the eagle would be charged--taking the impact hits and all the rest?
No. And besides, this was replaced by the "random movement" special rule (with few exceptions) in FAQ.
Anyway, basically it works like this:
1) you pivot
2) you roll
3) you move
in order to charge, your MOVE must bring you in contact with the enemy. Consult BRB 74 for more details.
I guess there is a rule that prevents this, but I don't know what it is. Could you explain more how this tactic works (=what rules prevent the HPA from charging)?
Exactly this :) It can not come closer that 1" to any unit, unless charging. But only the actual move (which happens AFTER you roll for distance - and you roll AFTER you pivot the unit) can be used for charging. So the HPA can not pivot at all in this case.

Anyway, this is pretty cheap, tough legal tactic. In some areas, it is prohibited by house rules; in others, it is respected as completely OK tactic.
Unicorn's conversions (updated 1st Jun)
Painted
BSB, mounted noble, WD noble, Branchie, Alter, Treeman, 12 WR, 10 WD, 10 GR, 10 WW, 5 Dryads, 5 WhR, 6 Tk, Altar of Khaine
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Treeman, 10 WD, dragon lord, Alter, 9 WhR, 5 GR, DE sin, OK Butcher, Beast heroes x5
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Re: Poor defenceless elf Vs. Hellpit abomination ?

Post by untravel »

Thanks for the explanation, unicorn. I'm playing in a tournament this weekend. If I get a Skaven opponent, he's going to be very disappointed. :)
Tournaments: Dice Day 2011, 10th Conflict (2011), Grand Belgian Open (2011)
Results (W-L-D): 2-4-3
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