Wardancer Uses

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Wardancer Uses

Post by Frimbleglim »

So we all know wardancers can't go up against ranked infantry. Most of us will agree that it's best not to try to kill heavy cavilry with them and they can't catch fast cavalry any more than anything else can. But how about using them as warmachine hunters by using the moonstone to teleport them across the board?

Using them to assassinate the enemy general is risky but what about the BSB? They tend to be lightly armoured and have little magical protection. Or perhaps an enemy mage in a unit?

You wouldn't need to take many for these uses: maybe 6 without any upgrades.

what are people's thoughts on this?
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by beno »

Suicide! but if they get the job done then maybe its worth it? I think I'd rather use an eagle or two to do the same job though since they'd be more versatile and could go after other prey or missions if the need arose.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Frimbleglim »

beno wrote:Suicide! but if they get the job done then maybe its worth it? I think I'd rather use an eagle or two to do the same job though since they'd be more versatile and could go after other prey or missions if the need arose.
Eagles don't get 18 attacks against a warmachine. Nor do they get a killing blow option. They are more versatile and harder to kill though so I can see your point.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by The_tau_elf2 »

I think that the small unit of WD would work, but I am still iffy on the moostone. I have only used it in one or two games in 7th and it didn't make me feel compelled to bring it, I see it as a larger point game type of item. Like most people say in their defense against not bringing it is that you cannot guarantee that there will be another forest where you want it (if there is another one). But like I said, the jury is still up for me, I plan on using it in my upcoming tournament and I will try my best to make a battle report of some kind... these things tend to slip my mind all the time. As for the Great Eagle comment, I would have to say that this would be one of those pros and cons events. If wardancers could fly, had higher toughness, and costed less then it would be a no brainer :smirk:
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Asrai Master »

I don't think it is necsasserily true that wardancers cannot take on rank and file troops. Sure, I wouldn't think of using them against chaos warriors ( although they would probably kill quite a few on the charge with killing blow) but what about state troops? A unit of 15 on the charge using storm of blades on the charge is gonna kill a lot of halberdiers and may well brake the unit. If it doesn't then you can use the shadows coil on turn 2 for some extra pretection before using storm of blades again in the next turn. Surely this would work against any low leadership troops, not just Empire? :question:
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Exarch »

If dancers charge a large unit of T3/low I troops, let's say, in the flank, they surely will kill loads of them. :drool: The problem is reform (even if the enemy loses the combat round). If they're steadfast they take the reform Ld-test on their unmodified Ld. This usually results in the enemy reforming and in the next turn dancers die. Dancers might have a Wardancer Highborn with Crown of Command and would hold their ground in the second round. Most of them would still be dead. :wasted:
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Frimbleglim »

Not so. Wardancers cannot break steadfastness.

you will have to slaughter the state troops to a man before they will break if they have a general and BSB nearby. They may suceed eventualy but they will be unable to do anything else as their numbers will be too few.

What's more, the wardancers are actually more points and an empire army would just shoot them down before they reached combat.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Asrai Master »

You are right I suppose, it's just that i recently bought 15 and I am desperate to find some way of using them. :cry:
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by sitaavanu »

I recently had success using them as bodyguards for my highborn. I found it best to rush them into combat asap to minimize shooting casualties and and then ward dance to reduce incoming damage. With the highborn adding to combat res through kills and wardancers negating wounds my opponent really had to try to break them on that first round. If you hadn't already you want to slam another unit into the fray upping your CR even more. And even if you do loose with your LD 10 the opponent will struggle to actually break you.

Granted I am just learning and this is based off my experience in only a few games.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Frimbleglim »

The way I always used to wardancers is pretty much the way fluff says Dwarf Slayers should be used: Charge them at something big and scary. Preferably Giants, Ogres, Trolls or knights. Failing that they could be used the way sitaavanu suggests. The key is to make sure that they pick a "kill a lot of stuff dance" in a turn where you have a lot of combat rez from other sources and (in 8th edditon) have negated a unit's steadfastness.

Back when they got a dance that made them unbreakable I would sometimes even use them to receive a cavalry charge. This is no longer an option though for several reasons.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by popisdead »

With the free reforming I've used mine as just protectors now. When those tunneling or outflanking Skaven (whatever they are/do) show up, I toss my Wardancers at them.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by unicorn »

Exarch wrote:If dancers charge a large unit of T3/low I troops, let's say, in the flank, they surely will kill loads of them. :drool: The problem is reform (even if the enemy loses the combat round). If they're steadfast they take the reform Ld-test on their unmodified Ld. This usually results in the enemy reforming and in the next turn dancers die. Dancers might have a Wardancer Highborn with Crown of Command and would hold their ground in the second round. Most of them would still be dead. :wasted:
Why? They have no use for Crown of Command - if they are loosing so badly they will need it, they are usually dead.
Anyway, to the reform... Simply stop your opponent from reforming and you have no problem at all!

Personally, I am playing one unit of 9-10 WDs in each of my games. They are very very good unit and their performance is usually awesome.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Caitsidhe »

unicorn wrote:Personally, I am playing one unit of 9-10 WDs in each of my games. They are very very good unit and their performance is usually awesome.
Your experience is very different from mine. In my area they rarely even make it to combat. The small unit size coupled with no armor tends to mean they get wiped out by a ranged attack or spell long before they get into position to hit anything worth the point investment.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by The_tau_elf2 »

Caitsidhe wrote:
unicorn wrote:Personally, I am playing one unit of 9-10 WDs in each of my games. They are very very good unit and their performance is usually awesome.
Your experience is very different from mine. In my area they rarely even make it to combat. The small unit size coupled with no armor tends to mean they get wiped out by a ranged attack or spell long before they get into position to hit anything worth the point investment.
Well, against those armies that do not have a shooting game like beastmen or VC you can get them into assault. In the last tournament I attended I played against another WE player who was running a full WD unit as his anchor. He had a WD Highborn, WD Noble, BSB, and a Lvl 4 Weaver along with 15 WD with full command, the rest of his army were nothing but GG and WW. Let me say that you may think that you can simply focus shooting power at the WD, but he was tearing me apart from all of his shooting. My way out was to ignore the WD and assault the GG/WW, I then used Dweller's on the WD which cut their numbers in half, then I charged them with my treekin next turn. He killed one of my treekin, and from my attacks and stomps I wiped out the unit except for his highborn and weaver. They lost combat and got overrun, I eventually won the game. But apparently he did well in his other games, he played a watchtower scenario against another army (I forgot which one) and housed his WD in the building which won him the game, he almost tied a skaven player but eventually lost due to the scenario. He ended up in 4th place.

So in comparison I think that a small unit of WD that is used correctly can be effective, depending on what army you face and who is playing, they should perform well.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Caitsidhe »

The_tau_elf2 wrote:Well, against those armies that do not have a shooting game like beastmen or VC you can get them into assault.
I suppose this is the fundamental difference between us. I don't ever consider models for lists on the basis of a "possible" good match up. I build "all comer" lists. War Dancers might be great against specific opponents but that isn't something to base strategy on.
In the last tournament I attended I played against another WE player who was running a full WD unit as his anchor. He had a WD Highborn, WD Noble, BSB, and a Lvl 4 Weaver along with 15 WD with full command, the rest of his army were nothing but GG and WW.
Absolutely awful. I wish I got opponents like this in my tournaments. That many points concentrated in one highly vulnerable unit is a dream come true.
Let me say that you may think that you can simply focus shooting power at the WD, but he was tearing me apart from all of his shooting. My way out was to ignore the WD and assault the GG/WW, I then used Dweller's on the WD which cut their numbers in half, then I charged them with my treekin next turn. He killed one of my treekin, and from my attacks and stomps I wiped out the unit except for his highborn and weaver. They lost combat and got overrun, I eventually won the game. But apparently he did well in his other games, he played a watchtower scenario against another army (I forgot which one) and housed his WD in the building which won him the game, he almost tied a skaven player but eventually lost due to the scenario. He ended up in 4th place.
I would just focus a lot of shooting power on the War Dancers but then again, I woudln't have the same problem with the opponent's shooting. Remember that I run a 30+ Glade Guard unit with BSB, Rhymer's Harp and often Regeneration on them. With the Spellweaver I replenish losses as fast as I take them. To me, I would kill the War Dancers first and then worry about the archers. Of course my Treekin would already be across the board and chasing his Glade Guard and my Treeman and/or Dryads would be on his Waywatchers. My standard army is well-tooled to deal with his. In fact, his army is a best case scenario for me. I would point out that you destroyed him and you didn't even focus on the War Dancers first. You had ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD to kill his support before you had to wipe out his point wasteful War Dancers. :)
So in comparison I think that a small unit of WD that is used correctly can be effective, depending on what army you face and who is playing, they should perform well.
Sure... against the right opponent in the right scenario you can rock. If you draw the right card chasing that straight you will win big. I just don't like to gamble like that.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by The_tau_elf2 »

Normally I would agree with what you said about the 30 GG, but this was a 1500 pt tournament, so the games in general where small. People where running lists with one high cost unit and the other units where either monsters, characters, or med to small sized units. So the main problem with having a big shooting unit in that tournament is that it would be your high cost unit and could only shoot at one unit at a time, then(depending on how they are ranked) your stand and shoot would only get 20 shots against another big sized assault unit, and thats if they didn't use a spell.

And I don't taylor my lists to opponents ever, I always make "take all comers" lists, I was just pointing out that if someone decides to play WD they have a reasonable chance of getting an opponent without shooting. But... yea, you won't really catch WD in most competitive lists, they are devastating on the charge but get ripped apart on the defense. If you want to get them up field then they would have to hide in soft cover for -3 shooting ( range, skirmish, soft cover) on the way up which means most shots would miss, but you would have to divert a lot of effort into treesurfing if you run a treeman and a singer. Also, you can try hiding behind another big unit to prevent LoS, that requires less resource diverting and shifts focus from them to the big unit. Just a couple of ways a person can possibly make them work in a "take all comers" list.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by UNREALPwnage »

I am running 7 wardancers and a wardancer nobel with moonstone of the hidden ways in a 650 game.

My list is:
Nobel W/ moonstone of the hidden ways and Wardancer kindred
2 units of 8 dyrads
14 glade guard
7 wardancers

I have to face Bretonnians ( he is running 4 units of 5 knights with 2 paladins), O&G (night goblins), and Deamons (no idea)

My hopes for this game is that my wardancers can moonstone of the hidden ways behind my enemy when they approch my main line. The amount of attacks the wardancers can deal is rediculous and will be a major asset.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Kertilien »

I use my Wardancers in every game and they (almost) always perform very well for me.

I always have one or two small units of Wardancers for use as speed bumps. They're practically the same cost as scouts, but their dances are far more dangerous than a handful of S3 bow shots. Fast cavalry and such can't get away with charging them because they'd be wiped out before they got to strike. Positioned at odd angles, they're a pain for blocks to charge as they risk exposing a flank and might lose a rank or so before the wardancers die. Even better, while many enemies will try to run right over eagles or scouts, they'll be hesitant to do so to wardancers when a character is in the unit for fear of a lucky killing blow. They'll often slow their advance to kill those Wardancers first or go well around them. Delaying your opponent's deathstar for even a single turn is well worth a hundred points. Small units can also charge recklessly out towards an enemy wizard; they'll often force the enemy to keep their distance for a turn and draw lots of fire away from the rest of your army.

The other unit I often use is a large-ish combat unit led by my general (a spellweaver with the Lore of Beasts) and a wardancer noble (I like the mini). This unit is the primary hammer unit in my army; I've never had trouble screening them until they see combat and they're fearsome when enhanced by Wyssan's Wildform and The Savage Beast of Horros. The Transformation of Kadon would probably be effective as well, but I tend to stay away from that spell.


One thing you may wish to consider when trying to win a fight with wardancers is starting with The Shadows Coil rather than Storm of Blades. In previous editions, you'd usually open with Storm of Blades to get as much out of your S4 charge as possible, prevent return attacks, and break the enemy. However, in this edition, an enemy that isn't crippled by that charge will still make a sizeable number of return attacks and cripple the wardancers. By opening with The Shadows Coil to minimize casualties in the first round, you'll get two rounds of good attacks (S4 x2, S3 x3) in before the enemy can make a significant counterattack, rather than one round of great attacks (S4 x 3). When these two rounds of attacks are enough to cripple the enemy unit, you'll stand a good chance of breaking them without significant losses. This is especially noticeable when fighting building assaults.
Last edited by Kertilien on 28 Jan 2011, 05:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Sabreur »

Kertillien makes some good points

Wardancers backed up by magic are quite potent (whether its Life or Beasts....both can work wonders for WD). I run two squads of WD x 9 (plus a hero in each). With a lvl 4 weaver (beasts is preferrable as mentioned, but Life works too) you can really buff them up, making them somewhat more durable and more killy.

I would add that lots of shooting to take out opposition's shooting, and/or some serious threats in your army (such as big units of dryads, treekin or even eternal guard used aggressively) really helps take the opponents attention off wardancers so they make it to combat and do what they do best. Having lots of shooting/magic also helps thin enemy ranks before you charge with your wardancers, so you have a greater chance of wiping out enemy. Synergy is key to success with WE ;)
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Caitsidhe »

Wardancers look really neat on the shelf, particularly with a nice decorative base to display them on. They are really cool looking models that should never cast their shadow on the battlefield. :) Perhaps in the next book.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Sabreur »

Caitsidhe wrote:Wardancers look really neat on the shelf, particularly with a nice decorative base to display them on. They are really cool looking models that should never cast their shadow on the battlefield. :) Perhaps in the next book.
I totally disagree.

One thing that warhammer has always been about is wiping out your opponent's models (okay its not the only thing, but its undeniably important!)

This hasn't really become less important in 8th edition, and wardancers remain the most powerful 'hammer' unit for shear wounds caused that WE have (thanks to high WS, I and Attacks). Used properly, they can cause tremendous damage (Wyssan's Wyldform helps alot). The trick is to make sure they don't take the hits back. This can be achieved through use of buffs (particularly flesh to stone spell) and ranged fire support (both shooting and magic) to cut down enemy ranks and minimize attacks back at the wardancers. Although its not a perfect set-up, you can make it work by taking out enemy spellcasters early and making sure you have fire superiority (i.e. way more archers than your opponent....not hard for WE).

Moral of the story: to use Wardancers effectively, you have to build your list around them. Everything else is in the list to support their efforts. If you just throw WD in the army and expect them to kick butt; well they will probably disappoint more often than not...

While dryads and treekin are not bad, they have glaring weaknesses too (magic and flaming are obvious); plus they just aren't as kill-y as wardancers are; and to make them combat effective, you generally end up with less archers so that weakens your fire support (not to mention they are bigger models and there is a possibility of hindering your own firing lanes).
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Caitsidhe »

Sabreur wrote:I totally disagree.
Ok. We can agree to totally disagree.
One thing that warhammer has always been about is wiping out your opponent's models (okay its not the only thing, but its undeniably important!) This hasn't really become less important in 8th edition, and wardancers remain the most powerful 'hammer' unit for shear wounds caused that WE have (thanks to high WS, I and Attacks).
This is simply wrong. In 8th Edition our most powerful 'hammer' unit is Treekin. The overall package is what matters and how many dead opposing models will be generated.
Used properly, they can cause tremendous damage (Wyssan's Wyldform helps alot). The trick is to make sure they don't take the hits back. This can be achieved through use of buffs (particularly flesh to stone spell) and ranged fire support (both shooting and magic) to cut down enemy ranks and minimize attacks back at the wardancers. Although its not a perfect set-up, you can make it work by taking out enemy spellcasters early and making sure you have fire superiority (i.e. way more archers than your opponent....not hard for WE).
Let me point out the flaw in your logic, the many flaws. You are already starting to hedge your bets. You say "used properly" and follow that up with REQUIRED magical buffs, the eternal optimism of somehow reducing attacks back, and also include ranged support. Ok? Why not just take Treekin in the first place who will hit just as hard without needing the Rube Goldberg machine to get the job done? More to the point, the Treekin will actually MAKE IT to combat while the Wardancers are likely to be killed to a man on the way. All the same things you mention also help Treekin. The important difference is the Treekin can function without those things. The Wardancers cannot.
Moral of the story: to use Wardancers effectively, you have to build your list around them. Everything else is in the list to support their efforts. If you just throw WD in the army and expect them to kick butt; well they will probably disappoint more often than not...
This is the moral of your story? :) I hate to break it to you but that isn't much of a moral. Build around this rotten unit in hopes of making it work! Yes brothers and sisters... you too can build a one trick pony that MIGHT actually work against the right match up, when the stars align, all your magic goes off, and the opposing player is brain dead. I would say the moral of your story is leave the silly Wardancers on the shelf and build a feasible list.
While dryads and treekin are not bad, they have glaring weaknesses too (magic and flaming are obvious); plus they just aren't as kill-y as wardancers are; and to make them combat effective, you generally end up with less archers so that weakens your fire support (not to mention they are bigger models and there is a possibility of hindering your own firing lanes).
[/quote][/quote]

Really? Dryads are not vulnerable to fire by the way... and both of these units are quite killy indeed. They have the added benefit of a high surviability. Why exactly would I have to take less archers by running Dryads and Treekin? The cost comparison is rather favorable to Forest Spirits and rather bad against Wardancers. Where do you get this stuff?
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Joelatron »

unit of 5 with no command upgrades.
Place to hide the lvl4 if anything.

However they also make a handy assassination unit. Throw them at the enemy lvl4 etc.

Not the awesome unit they were in 7th, and I along with everyone else cannot wait the book upgrade that (hopefully) makes them awesome again...here's hoping
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by PaW »

The reason why they don't work for you caitsidhe is due to the way you run your lists. A small unit of Wardancers is the obvious target since everything else in your list is so massive and points denial.

Wardancers do have a place. 5-7 man just as a bunker / throw away against a combat lord that you cannot take, requiring the lucky six on the killing blow

They do have there uses, But and it really is a big but! finding the points in a 2k list is near but impossible.

Everything in 8th has a use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
People who say units are useless are damn right liars.
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Re: Wardancer Uses

Post by Caitsidhe »

PaW wrote:The reason why they don't work for you caitsidhe is due to the way you run your lists. A small unit of Wardancers is the obvious target since everything else in your list is so massive and points denial.
Wardancers would be a big target even if I was using the MSU approach. Wardancers are only of value if you can get them to combat. Since everyone knows they are suicide troops that die to a stiff breeze that WILL inflict some pain if they reach the target, everyone just kills them before they reach the target. They are a slow unit which lacks a ranged attack and no decent saves. Opponents have all the time in the world to slaughter them. If you play an MSU army they are a target of priority because unlike other MSU units they are a threat. In my kind of list they are a target because they are easy points. Your logic does not hold. They are equal sucky in any kind of list you build.
Wardancers do have a place. 5-7 man just as a bunker / throw away against a combat lord that you cannot take, requiring the lucky six on the killing blow
A "bunker" is defined as a unit in which a character is afforded PROTECTION. A tiny Wardancer unit affords none. There is little point in putting a valuable character in a unit who will be wiped by any series of ranged or magical attacks. Your logic is not tracking. The "throwaway" troops argument is also rather hollow. Why buy throwaway troops when we have better options that can do the job and are not disposable? It is a matter of bang for the buck.
They do have there uses, But and it really is a big but! finding the points in a 2k list is near but impossible.
I play 3000pt games on a regular basis and I can't find any viable uses for them there either. :)
Everything in 8th has a use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
People who say units are useless are damn right liars.
Ok. You have some strange new use for the word "liar" of which I was previously unaware. There are lots of models across all the armies that have NO PLACE and are useless. I guess that makes me a liar because I am going to continue to say that and BACK IT UP with logical arguments.
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