Conga lining monsters

[Unendil]

I think this is a very good albeit sneaky tactic, agreeing that only the champ would be the only model able to recieve any retaliation, however I believe you would lose any bonuses from a standard as he would no longer be in the front rank....your only chance would be to outnumber and flank/rear...is this right?

[Peleborn]

On a slightly different tack... What about receiving charges that do impact hits.

eg. a unit champ at the head of a line of glade riders (or whatever) takes a charge from a steam tank. Do all impact hits just hit the champ, or is the unit squished too?

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

How are impact hits distributed?

Like close combat?
Like shooting?

[Hopeless Hero]

Came back from a game weekend and mentioned this tactic.
I don't know what page in the rule book it is on (As I don't have one myself), but there is a rule that prevents this. I believe it is called Overkill, or something to the extent. It states that even though models can't be killed by the additional wounds caused by the monster, any wounds over and above the one that kill the champion are still counted in combat resolution. Its explained that the brutal slaughtering of the units leader causes a morale effect, based on how badly he was beaten. I can try and get the exact passage so I can cite it directly, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to anyways due to GW's copy write.

[The Virgin Forest]

Sadly, overkill is only in effect for challenges

[Allendor]

I can see the "moral" issues of this tactic but I can also see where it should be used.
1. Desperation
2. Against an opponant who really deserves it.
3. Not in a friendly game.

If this tactic can used against a monster then what about a single character, say a daemon prince?

[Herald]

A character would issue a challenge and overkill the poor GR champ. Conga line charging is just wrong. There, I said it.

[Azaireal]

Conga line is an acceptable tactic under the same sense that you are not allowed to charge an enemy ranked unit from behind with any unit standing in front of said enemy.

It makes no logical sense that the monster can't step passed one corpse to kill the rest, but neither does it make sense for a cavalry unit to charge the spears of a phalanx when (in game terms) it's charge distance is fully capable of swinging around the unit and striking from behind.

You have to accept questionable legal actions like the conga line simply because game mechanics force you to make bad decisions even when it is not necessary (IE,always charging the [ranked units] front from the front).

[Herald]

Azaireal, your example is one where according to game mechanics, the charged unit is passive. In real life things happen simultanously, and the 'charge arc' reflects that if you are face to face with the enemy (within charge range...) you can't just run around them and strike from behind! They see you coming and turn to face you, unless you trick or force them to otherwise.
When you use the game mechanics in such a manner that you just can't visualize what is happening on the battle field, then it is wrong, IMO. Either the rules or the application of them. If your conga lined Glade riders charge a monster and win because the monster is outnumbered and you have a mus, how do you explain that? 'The monster finds it so scary that these elves actually line up to get killed in perfect order, that he runs away'?

[Shyanekh]

I have to agree with Herald on this one, it just doesn't seem right to do it. I could understand somebody using this tactic against a truly insufferable opponent or in a very competitive game, but personally I think that this sort of trick turns a fantasy game into a game of mathematics.

[Unendil]

I just lost a Treeman to a BIG unit of Pegasus Knights in this mannner...it was not very pretty for the treeman, that said..this is a tactic to use for everyone, right?...The rules are written the way they are for a reason and I think that equalizes things a bit, every army has something scary that using this tactic even peasants could try to take out....

[The Virgin Forest]

The rules are written this way, cause GW designers are too sloppy to look for loopholes

[pincushion]

Hi. Short-time lurker, I registered just to further complicate this thread because I found it so interesting...

I'd like to revisit how viable the conga line tactic is. Approaching it from a puzzle/game mechanics angle, and after reading through the thread and parts of the rulebook, I'd like to share what I see. (If this was already covered somewhere else, could someone please provide me with a link?)

Firstly, If the GR Champ survives, then the monster should lose from outnumber and flank and will have to take a break test. That's the easy part, right? Now, if the monster deals one wound, then the GR Champ is dead. Salamander, Herald, and Beithir Seun's exchange about speed rolling and not replacing the champ got me thinking, though...My question is: if the champ is killed, does anyone step up (move up) to fill the ranks, and are the monster and GRs still in combat no one does?

Please consider:

If you think of two blocks of infantry clashing head on, and a champion dies outside of a challenge, do regular troopers move up to keep formation? If so, what's different about the conga line? I see an opportunity for slow rolling, which would match the fine print of the situation that we're stuck in...then, it wouldn't be that excess wounds on the champ are carried over - rather, the champ dies, and the troopers line up one by one to fill in. (To me, the excess wounds thing makes sense in a fight where there's a choice as to who one would attack, because then 'extra' attacks could be allocated to 'make sure' that the champ dies. Here, he's the only game in town, so why not slow roll and wait for the line to move up?)

Alternatively, the BRB page 36 is about incomplete ranks and casualties. Diagram 36.2 says that if casualties inflicted causes the units to separate, a unit (the one doing the killing?) is moved to maintain contact. The figure shows the incomplete rear rank, versus a destroyed front rank in the conga line, but, I would suggest that if a monster rolls attack dice one at a time, and kills the champ, I think that there's an argument for moving the monster to maintain contact before resuming its attack rolls, now against rank-and-file.

However, let's say the champ's killed, and there's no moving by either unit - then there's a gap. Are the GR and monster considered to be engaged in combat if they're not in contact? BRB page 46 notes there are circumstances where units are no longer engaged in combat because of casualties. It specifically talks about multiple combats, but if a charging unit won't move into contact to fill casualties, why should they be considered as being in a combat, much less win it?

I prefer the interpretation that moves the conga line up to keep them in contact, coming in one-on-one at the monster and probably getting slaughtered like in a bad kung-fu movie. It takes a lot of the edge of the tactic, and keeps game mechanics from dominating the spirit of the game, but still allows for much hilarity if the monster fails to kill even the champion. That's what came out of my mutterings, does this make sense to you all?

[Herald]

Sort of, except BRB states explicitly (page 76) that: If a model attacks a (champ, char or monster) any excess wounds are not carried over to ordinary troopers.

However, let's say the champ's killed, and there's no moving by either unit - then there's a gap. Are the GR and monster considered to be engaged in combat if they're not in contact? BRB page 46 notes there are circumstances where units are no longer engaged in combat because of casualties. It specifically talks about multiple combats, but if a charging unit won't move into contact to fill casualties, why should they be considered as being in a combat, much less win it?

Ha-ha! There is a good argument, when some bugger starts conga charging. Should keep him frustrated at least.

[imriel]

Sneaky tactics? Underhanded? Abusing the spirit of the rules? Absolutely!

But let's trace all this back and put the blame squarely where it belongs: Steam tanks, Popemobiles, Greater Demons, Pendant of Khaleth, the Hydra etc....

With the way Games Workshop altered fantasy Warhammer, we're left with very little recourse. Who wants to go to a tournament, play fairly, and then get whupped by someone who's power gaming? The last weekend-long tournament I went to I dragged along my Dark Elves. I played a relatively sane list (Ring of Hotek and one Hydra, no Blackguard and one unit of Dark Riders.) I eventually ran into a Vampire Army where his lord was placed on a flying steed, tooled up against shooting, and then just spent 6 turns raising zombies (had like 13 power dice or more). He overwhelmed my flanks, and on the last turn raised 5 zombies and took three table quarters. Is that supposed to be fun? And I played against a Demon army with an Unbreakable block of Plaguebearers led by the Keeper of Secrets. Hilarious!

So in summary, I would not feel bad about using the Conga Line tactic (hell, I'm going to do it with glee, no less). Wood Elf book needs an update to catch up with this new "Cold War", and until then, we do what we have to. And secondly, I actually think this sort of tactic fits in with the spirit of the Wood Elves, in that it's very hit-and-run/guerilla style.

[pincushion]

Sort of, except BRB states explicitly (page 76) that: If a model attacks a (champ, char or monster) any excess wounds are not carried over to ordinary troopers.

So, the consensus is that slow rolling a monster's attacks one at a time still doesn't allow it to 'save' some attacks for the rank and file? That's assuming that they come into contact after the champ is killed via the possibilities mentioned in my previous post, which was another question that I had a few posts ago.

[Herald]

Normally (meaning a none-conga-line w a champion), you would have to designate your attacks before rolling, so I can't see how 'slow rolling' comes into play at all.

[Tethlis]

Here's my understanding: Since you allocate attacks at the beginning of the combat, and there isn't anything but the champion in base contact at that time, you can't choose to allocate anything against rank-and-file Dire Wolves. Slow rolling doesn't help since you didn't formally declare you were attacking any non-champ models. I don't have the rulebook sitting in front of me to verify, so can someone check that this makes sense?

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

It does. They are not eligible targets.

[pincushion]

Ah, that clears things up for me, thanks!

And in case I confused anyone earlier with my earlier question about whether the units would remain in contact after the champion falls, BRB pg 36 - Removing Casualties - casually mentions that models in the rear ranks step forward to fill any gaps that appear. I would think that although the champ has to get removed from the front, the rank and file will still step forward, keeping contact and staying in combat and making this whole dance a viable tactic.

With all that out of the way, has anyone tried disguising this by conga-deploying their fast cavalry at the beginning of the game, instead of changing formations right before they want to charge? How'd that work out for you?