Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Moderator: Council of Elders

User avatar
Ease
Trusted Bowman
Trusted Bowman
Posts: 249
Joined: 02 Dec 2008, 11:52
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts (rarely)

Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Ease »

Played my first large match with Wood Elves last weekend. Not played more than 1250 with them before, and this was 3000pts! I lost, but for obvious reasons that I needn't go in to. One thing I am curious about is how to defy mushroom heavy O&Gs? My opponent had a level 4 mage, and three level 2s, all of which had as many Magic Mushrooms as they could carry. One of the spells (the Goblin 10+ one I believe, Hand of Gork?) requires a model, anywhere on the board, to pass an Initiative test or take D6 S10 wounds hits!!! When first done on my Wardancers I laughed, but I was less happy when it took out a Treeman in one hit. I had 6 dispel dice (three level 1s of which one was a Branchwraith) but I just couldn't compete against his 9 Power Dice and 20ish Magic Mushrooms.

Then in my magic phase I didn't once get off a single spell, because he had a Banner that gave him three dispel dice, as well as the 7 his mages and army already gave him. How do you get around something like that? And how can I protect my Treeman?
User avatar
Salamander
Campaign Team
Posts: 732
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 19:29
Armies I play: Wood elves, Imperial Guard
Location: Location, location!

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Salamander »

hope he rolls a 1 on the mushroom die and the spell is miscast? its a toughy I give you that...
User avatar
Ease
Trusted Bowman
Trusted Bowman
Posts: 249
Joined: 02 Dec 2008, 11:52
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts (rarely)

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Ease »

Oh yeah, did I mention that he didn't roll a 1 for a single Mushroom? Did I also mention that up until this game (where I read his army book myself) he insisted that Magic Mushrooms worked just like Power Stones, and didn't automatically Miscast on 1s unless he had already rolled a 1? :p I am quite keen on slaughtering these Orcs sometime soon!
User avatar
ArchMagosAlchemys
Witch-Hunter General
Posts: 13755
Joined: 06 Apr 2007, 22:56
Armies I play: VC, Empire, Asrai, DoW, DE, SM, Lustwing, many IG, Adeptus Mechanicus
Location: Lost in the Laurelorn GMT -5hrs

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

Wood Elves do not scale well above 2500 points or so. We get 'more' but not much 'better'.

The simplest answer is to avoid a lot of high value models and go horde against him, although you may not have the models for that. Adding a Spellweaver with the Wand of Wych Elm is a good first start in slowing his magic phase. What is the rest of the army? You can still afoord to suck up the damage if you ultimately prevail.
Airmeith: Healer of the Twisted Glade

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Julius 'Groucho' Marx

Burn the Heretic!
Treachery Aforth: Witches purged = 0

War of Blood: 3 Daemonettes, last wound Keeper of Secrets
User avatar
Ease
Trusted Bowman
Trusted Bowman
Posts: 249
Joined: 02 Dec 2008, 11:52
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts (rarely)

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Ease »

The rest of his army was a unit of 25 Black Orcs, with Grimgor (who is an absolute beast!) and three units of 20 night goblins each with the maximum number of fanatics. Then he had Orc Boar Boys (10 of them) and two Giants, and four Spear Chukkas and a Goblin Lobber thing. The Chukkas killed one warhawk all game between them!

I found it hard because my Wild Riders couldn't charge ANYTHING. The Giants went around the flanks of the army/hid behind the other units. The Black Orcs (which I eventually did charge, after giving up hope) decked the Wild Riders, and I couldn't risk charging any of the Night Goblins because Fanatics destroy T3 Wild Riders...

My Glade Guard killed most the Orc Boar Boys, but three Boars made it through and ran my GG off the board. His Giants individually pinned my unit of 10 Wardancers done for 4 turns, and one of my Treemen for three turns. It just didn't seem like I could do anything right.
User avatar
unicorn
Walking Rulebook
Posts: 4267
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 13:12
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Czech republic (GMT+1 for WFO purposes)

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by unicorn »

Ease wrote:One of the spells (the Goblin 10+ one I believe, Hand of Gork?) requires a model, anywhere on the board, to pass an Initiative test or take D6 S10 wounds hits!!!
Yeah. Goblin spell, Mork wants ya! But it is not ANYWHERE on the board, but within 18" range only. And can not be cast into combat. That makes some difference...
Unicorn's conversions (updated 1st Jun)
Painted
BSB, mounted noble, WD noble, Branchie, Alter, Treeman, 12 WR, 10 WD, 10 GR, 10 WW, 5 Dryads, 5 WhR, 6 Tk, Altar of Khaine
Finished
Treeman, 10 WD, dragon lord, Alter, 9 WhR, 5 GR, DE sin, OK Butcher, Beast heroes x5
User avatar
Herald
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1795
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 14:23
Location: Oslo

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Herald »

Fanatics are a pain, but eagles, scouts or waywatchers should easily force them to be released, maybe even to be more of a problem for him than you. So what happened there? In my last games vs O&G parking the TM in the free wood in the middle, was enough to disrupt his entire battle lines (with a little help from animosity). No luck on terror tests either?

O&G are unpredictable both for you and your opponent, and if dice roll his way they can be devastating, particularly the magic.
User avatar
ArchMagosAlchemys
Witch-Hunter General
Posts: 13755
Joined: 06 Apr 2007, 22:56
Armies I play: VC, Empire, Asrai, DoW, DE, SM, Lustwing, many IG, Adeptus Mechanicus
Location: Lost in the Laurelorn GMT -5hrs

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

At 3000 points you can afford one or two suicide eagles to release the fanatics, or an Alter in terrain. In any case, you control the release, not him and there will be some chaos. Giants are comparatively vulnerable to our shooting and squash orcs when they fall.

You rule the movement phase. He can, and usually will, stretch from one side of the table to the other. Concentrate on one flank and roll him up. Use of terrain is important to disrupt his movement.
Airmeith: Healer of the Twisted Glade

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Julius 'Groucho' Marx

Burn the Heretic!
Treachery Aforth: Witches purged = 0

War of Blood: 3 Daemonettes, last wound Keeper of Secrets
User avatar
popisdead
Former Council Member
Posts: 3096
Joined: 20 Sep 2005, 04:22
Location: Blackwater Park

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by popisdead »

4-6 levels of casters in 2000 pts is expected.

Taking 4 spellcasters is being a douchebag. slap him in the junk next time. Especially as it was O&G who can do two lvl 2's really well with the bound items an then get a general and BSB to have a nice balanced hero roundout.
everything plog
ork plog

"Yaaay for T7 Grots!"
User avatar
Tethlis
Shadow Sentinel
Shadow Sentinel
Posts: 3884
Joined: 05 Jun 2006, 19:43
Armies I play: Wood Elves, High Elves, Dark Elves, Ogres.
Location: Santa Barbara, California

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Tethlis »

Care to post up the list you used? That would help us get a sense of your playstyle and models available.

After you draw out the Fanatics, the Goblin casters should be easy meat for Hit-and-Run Warhawk Riders. There protection should be virtually zero, and the unit they're in shouldn't pose much of a combat threat. Make extensive use of forests and Tree Singing to help block his unit's line-of-sight and Treesurf your units into advantageous positions. A Treeman Ancient, Level 4 with Wand of the Wych Elm, and some Level 2s (one with Calaingor's Staff) will give you a strong Treesinging phase that even an abundance of dispel dice will have a hard time countering. The Treeman Ancient with Netlings is one of the few characters we have that can handle Grimgor, especially given his re-rolls in the first round of combat. Don't go after Grimgor's unit unless you can get the Ancient into a challenge with him, or hit his unit in a flank or rear where Grimgor won't be able to fight.

As for the giants, they'll be a good target for your missile fire in the early rounds of the game. Alter Nobles, Wild Riders and Wardancers can finish off a wounded giant, but you'll want to neutralize them quickly before they make it into your lines.

Waywatchers will help with early-game marchblocking, Fanatic pulling, and helping to contribute missile fire.
Image
Joelatron
Bladesinger
Bladesinger
Posts: 830
Joined: 18 Apr 2008, 01:38

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Joelatron »

next time you face this army consider taking the sisters of twilight on an eagle + a lvl4 with wand of the wych elm.

Read the sisters rules carefully. They are next to impossible to kill and on an eagle they are not a large target! + their bows are really nasty vs big ranked unit armies. The stone thrower template bow for instance is the equivilent of a 16 hit s3 HODA EVERY TURN. if shooting at a normal rank unit you get(as per p92 of rulebook) 4 hits and 16 partials = on average 12 hits = 8 wounds vs t3 = perfect for causing panic tests on goblins! + the other bow is great for disrupting the line by stopping a unit from moving. That + animosity = fantastic!

If used carefully, you should be able to expose the flank of grimgor's unit that he isn't on and get a rank breaking warbannered wildrider charge off. Remember the trick to beating Grimgor is not beating grimgor, but causing a unit of black orcs to flee = CR in the flank.

and yes Orc and Goblin magic hurts! I have the honour of having passed an initiative test with my TMA before vs that spell, so I know the stress it creates!
CAKE OR DEATH?

Visit my blog! www.thebrushofdoom.blogspot.com Lots of battle reports and stuff...with pictures!
User avatar
Mist Walker
Campaign Team
Posts: 3681
Joined: 28 Apr 2007, 01:38
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Slaanesh WoC
Location: Oxford or up North
Contact:

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Mist Walker »

Joelatron wrote:Read the sisters rules carefully. They are next to impossible to kill and on an eagle they are not a large target! + their bows are really nasty vs big ranked unit armies. The stone thrower template bow for instance is the equivilent of a 16 hit s3 HODA EVERY TURN. if shooting at a normal rank unit you get(as per p92 of rulebook) 4 hits and 16 partials = on average 12 hits = 8 wounds vs t3 = perfect for causing panic tests on goblins! + the other bow is great for disrupting the line by stopping a unit from moving. That + animosity = fantastic!
Only if you're sat on a hill will you get the 16 hits, otherwise the centre is placed on a model in the front rank (assuming you're shooting from the front)

It's still nice to use though, and rank breaking eagle riders are very nice. Sisters in flank, warhawks in rear will break most units or at least give you an opportunity to kill the wizard.
Image
Blood runs, Anger rises, Death wakes, War calls
User avatar
Tethlis
Shadow Sentinel
Shadow Sentinel
Posts: 3884
Joined: 05 Jun 2006, 19:43
Armies I play: Wood Elves, High Elves, Dark Elves, Ogres.
Location: Santa Barbara, California

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Tethlis »

Mist Walker wrote:Only if you're sat on a hill will you get the 16 hits, otherwise the centre is placed on a model in the front rank (assuming you're shooting from the front)
Is this assuming they're on a great eagle? If they're on a dragon, wouldn't they benefit from Large Target line-of-sight and be able to target into the middle of an enemy unit?
Image
Joelatron
Bladesinger
Bladesinger
Posts: 830
Joined: 18 Apr 2008, 01:38

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Joelatron »

I was told that by my local GW manager. His reasoning was that when you shoot at a unit you dont shoot at the front or the side-you shoot the "unit". Yes, you have to be able to "see" the side or the front etc, but you never remove casualties from the part of the unit you can see-always remove from the rear. Hence place the template on top of the unit to maximise number of hits.
Large target rules only allow you to see over units that are not also large targets, so going by GW manager's logic (which I agree with) the maximise the hits template works on the eagle as well.
CAKE OR DEATH?

Visit my blog! www.thebrushofdoom.blogspot.com Lots of battle reports and stuff...with pictures!
User avatar
Mist Walker
Campaign Team
Posts: 3681
Joined: 28 Apr 2007, 01:38
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Slaanesh WoC
Location: Oxford or up North
Contact:

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Mist Walker »

Tethlis wrote:
Mist Walker wrote:Only if you're sat on a hill will you get the 16 hits, otherwise the centre is placed on a model in the front rank (assuming you're shooting from the front)
Is this assuming they're on a great eagle? If they're on a dragon, wouldn't they benefit from Large Target line-of-sight and be able to target into the middle of an enemy unit?
Yeah, I must have cut out the part of the quote saying it's on a great eagle.

And in regards to removing models from the back of the unit: that's to represent models stepping forwards to fill gaps rather than the models being removed from the back. Imagine a combat where each front rank steps past each other to get rid of the rear ranks first.
Image
Blood runs, Anger rises, Death wakes, War calls
SilentTempest
Newcomer
Newcomer
Posts: 53
Joined: 17 Aug 2007, 11:12

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by SilentTempest »

I normally play 2k against my O&G opponent, and in fairness he doesn't tend to go very heavy on magic (typically 2 Level 2s, sometimes a 3rd, never seen him field a casting Lord), but my basic tactic is to take a scroll caddy with 2 scrolls, and if I'm fielding a Treeman Ancient I'll sometimes give him a Cluster of Radiants. This is just to last me long enough to assassinate his casters using cheap units like Dryads, or Hit and Run Warhawks.

Fanatics do complicate the matter though.

Having said that, it sounds like your opponent may have been a bit confused about the rules for the spell, based on what other posters have said. If he's casting an 18" spell at unlimited range, well, that's definitely going to make a difference. It also sounds like he may have customised (this is spelled right, dammit, I'm Australian! :D ) his list for you a bit. Fanatics make Wood Elves cry because apart from Eagles we have no cheap throwaway units to release them... The large amount of magic, confusion about mushrooms, and lack of rank and file units you can flank all suggest he saw you coming. Or you got unlucky.
User avatar
Azaireal
Bladesinger
Bladesinger
Posts: 619
Joined: 14 Jul 2008, 08:15
Location: Unlimited Blade Works

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Azaireal »

I heard baiting fanatics with Glade Riders was fun.

Wouldn't know, never meet and O&G player that hadn't quit 10 years ago.
Burning of the Azure Grove
Why is everything I did in 7th Edition suddenly so popular in 8th edition...?
User avatar
ArchMagosAlchemys
Witch-Hunter General
Posts: 13755
Joined: 06 Apr 2007, 22:56
Armies I play: VC, Empire, Asrai, DoW, DE, SM, Lustwing, many IG, Adeptus Mechanicus
Location: Lost in the Laurelorn GMT -5hrs

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

You can also bait Fanatics with Scouts. 85 points for a unit and a little shooting.
Airmeith: Healer of the Twisted Glade

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Julius 'Groucho' Marx

Burn the Heretic!
Treachery Aforth: Witches purged = 0

War of Blood: 3 Daemonettes, last wound Keeper of Secrets
AndyGI
Newcomer
Newcomer
Posts: 16
Joined: 23 Nov 2009, 11:11

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by AndyGI »

Or a night goblin unit that runs from a failed panic test will lose the fanatics. So a concentrated volley of arrows from glade guard etc

Grimgor, pre-2008 book special character. He's a bit hard, just avoid his unit.
User avatar
unicorn
Walking Rulebook
Posts: 4267
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 13:12
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Czech republic (GMT+1 for WFO purposes)

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by unicorn »

AndyGI wrote:Or a night goblin unit that runs from a failed panic test will lose the fanatics. So a concentrated volley of arrows from glade guard
It takes a awful LOT of shooting against a unit with 25+ models to force panic test, which they can still pass. Especially if the general is near . AWFUL lot of shooting you will easily find much better use somewhere else for.

From my experience, WWs in the wood nearby the gobbos (if opponent does the mistake to field them near any, or if you have some decent TS phase) is the very best solution. If you does not have this, Eagle is also awesome, being 50 pts only.
Unicorn's conversions (updated 1st Jun)
Painted
BSB, mounted noble, WD noble, Branchie, Alter, Treeman, 12 WR, 10 WD, 10 GR, 10 WW, 5 Dryads, 5 WhR, 6 Tk, Altar of Khaine
Finished
Treeman, 10 WD, dragon lord, Alter, 9 WhR, 5 GR, DE sin, OK Butcher, Beast heroes x5
Old Gamer
Newcomer
Newcomer
Posts: 17
Joined: 11 Jan 2010, 01:26

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Old Gamer »

Te hone thing that I noticed no one mentioned in this post that really hurt the goblins in my last game was the Divination Orb. It adds a free dispell die for any spell that your opponent tries to cast using more than two dice. In my last game, the Goblin player used two lvl 2 shamen with three mushrooms each. This gives each shamen two casting dice plus the standard two. I showed up with two lvl 2 singers, 2 scrolls and the Caligors(sp?) Stave and the orb. Twice when he used the mushroom he miscast and the other four times I was able to use the free die to (because he use two to cast) to dispell. The orb was really worth it's cost that game. Didn't need to use the scrolls that game.
User avatar
Mist Walker
Campaign Team
Posts: 3681
Joined: 28 Apr 2007, 01:38
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Slaanesh WoC
Location: Oxford or up North
Contact:

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Mist Walker »

If you read the divination orb's rules carefully, you'll see that it only gives you and extra dice when they roll four or more dice. If this was changed to a 50pt item which gave you extra dice against 3 dice spells it would be a sizable improvement to our magic defence.
Image
Blood runs, Anger rises, Death wakes, War calls
Old Gamer
Newcomer
Newcomer
Posts: 17
Joined: 11 Jan 2010, 01:26

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Old Gamer »

Perhaps this would be a good suggestion to pass on to GW- if they even listen to us. I made a couple several months ago by e-mail and still got no answer back from them. At any rate, you are right about the dice. But then again there were a lot of mistakes made in that game. It still ended up in the green skins being massacred.
thelordcal
Trusted Bowman
Trusted Bowman
Posts: 195
Joined: 02 May 2007, 20:38

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by thelordcal »

Sorry not a whole lot of time to read through the entire thread but, only 1 character can bring mushrooms, one and only one. That one character can take as many as he wants (i think) but only one character can bring mushrooms to a battle.

At least that's what i've always been told, and my interpretation of the rules
User avatar
Ease
Trusted Bowman
Trusted Bowman
Posts: 249
Joined: 02 Dec 2008, 11:52
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts (rarely)

Re: Orcs and Goblins brutal magic.

Post by Ease »

Lord Cal, I've never heard that limitation before! I had a look in the O&G rule book, and it didn't seem to imply that either. Then again, it didn't imply otherwise either. Anyone else got a view point on this?
Locked