How to Use Eternal Guard

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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by subcoud »

Azaireal wrote:Ah, Four models can attack the highborn (maybe six if you have the frontage matched exactly correct, or even just two if they are unlucky).
nope. Chaos models have a little wider base. Both ET and WoC are infantry but chaos has the orc base while Elves the less wide "human" one. So maximum 4 models with 2 attacks and 1 support attack by other 2, or 4 if they are a horde. 4 WoC have the same front with 5 Elves
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Joey_Boy »

I have been messing around with MSU combat army's built around 3-4 eagle characters for high strength attacks. In that list I run 2 units of 10 EG run 2 wide 5 deep. This allows the eagle characters to join them and going to the front, making them stubborn while tanking damage rather well.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Noght »

Joey_Boy wrote:I have been messing around with MSU combat army's built around 3-4 eagle characters for high strength attacks. In that list I run 2 units of 10 EG run 2 wide 5 deep. This allows the eagle characters to join them and going to the front, making them stubborn while tanking damage rather well.

For shame, Conga Lines? :tear:
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Mist Walker »

Also, fliers can't join units I don't think.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Noght »

Mist Walker wrote:Also, fliers can't join units I don't think.
I think he means combo charging to the front arc next the the Conga Line (grrrr), as there is now room.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Joey_Boy »

Nah, it's a 2 wide, so not really a conga. More like a class of EG on a field trip using the buddy system with the kindergarten-teacher up front.

And Mist Walker, your semi-correct. You cant join flyer, but a flyer can join a unit. My DE opponents do this all the time, and cram 2-3 pegsii masters in a unit of corsairs and charge them out once they are safe from my Waywatchers. The only problem with eagls are there movement that will be slowing down the EG, so you should keep the eagle characters alone and then march the EG 10" towards the opponents unit, and close enough that they cant move past, then fly over and join the Eagle character to the EG unit and have him take up all the space in the front rank.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Sethayla »

Wait, so you want the EG to take the charge and not be the charging unit? I'm confused with exactly what your strategy entails - spending a full turn just sitting in front of the other unit? And youd have to be pretty close because the eagle can only charge four inches I believe...

I can see it possibly working this way: Eagle is behind their lines, the enemy turns to face them (and is luckily not a shooting unit and has no spellcasters with magic missiles) and then the EG march up from behind. The eagle then jumps the unit, joining the EG. The next turn, the opponent wheels to face your EG. You then charge the EG into the front of the unit.

This does sound like an elegant plan; but it also sounds like one that can easily go awry - for the following reasons:

1. You aren't necessarily given the movement flexibility to stay out of sight of shooting units (especially war machines)

2. The enemy, instead of facing your eagle character, moves forward, toward the EG (though i think the eagle will still march block them.. I've been out since 7th edition so I'm unclear about this)
- This would force you to charge the character to the back and the EG to the front - assuming your EG haven't already been charged.
-sandwiching can be great, but this would fail against units that are very hard to kill and generate decent static CR - remember your EG aren't stubborn without the character

3. If you're character and EG are spending 2 turns lining up a charge they may be pummeled by magic. (similar to 1)


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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Joey_Boy »

Why would I ever want to charge a big nasty unit when i can spend a turn shooting at them, then forcing them to align to my unit and opening up for flank charges(when the enemy plays a tight formation).

The key idea is to control what happens. Your blocking them in the same way you would with a Treeman, only it's less vulnerable to many of the things that will kill a Treeman. It also gives you an option of having your Treeman/Wardancers/Dryads/Treekin charge the flank of said unit. Also you always have a swift-reform so when you don't need to block the enemy you have two units that can operate separately and when a situation on the battlefield arises where you need to block a unit and tie it down you have the option.

For me it's a tool. I don't run the EG "deathstar" because I'd rather play another army if I wanted to run ranked blocks that grind it out. But having small nimble units that I can use in different ways is what I love about WE. And this is the only way Iv found to use EG other then as a tricked out unit with several characters in it.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by thesustainablecenter »

So really if ET aren't at least stubborn (either through a character joining or numerous ranks) why would you ever take ET at all? Wardaners and dryads put out more damage and dont play the rank game. From what I'm gathering the ET are there to house characters, take the charge, not deliver it, hold for a turn, and then let your other stuff flank charge. Beyond that purpose I don't see MSU units of them doing much at all.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Moose123 »

Maybe a unit of 14 with a champ and musician and a bsb in the back, ranked up 2 wide as a roadblock for one turn. Seems rather inefficient however.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by thesustainablecenter »

If the BSB is "in the back" do you mean behind the block? Because he would need to be in the block and would not be going to the back unless a challenge was declined and your opponent sent him to the back. Eehh... <.< To me the ET are everything the WE aren't, ranked up grinding infantry. There even inefficient at that. I think the debate is more about, is it mandatory to have that 1 turn steadfast block in a WE army for the average player? Not the superstar WE general but the average to above average player v. equal to or better competition. To me player of equal skill will avoid charging straight into a TK or TM unless the match up was insanely 1 sided or out of desperation. ET with a general, bsb, and lvl4 inside is a must attack target as the rest of the list is either too hard to catch (GG, GR, WD, Drayds etc..) or too scary to engage (6 TK, TM) So it forces the issue and if we can hold a turn, with high ld, re-roll, stubborn, steadfast, whatever, then our hammers can be brought to bear. To me atm without the ET bunker I'm playing a game of keep away. Which is fine and will win me games, but gets old after a while. Its nice that WE have a few builds. I'm a long-time bret player and we really only have a single competitive build, a stubborn character bus.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Moose123 »

In the second rank, behind the two command models.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by thesustainablecenter »

So were taking full command plus 2 "durable" characters in the front rank...or are we just going something weird like 3 wide.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Ramesesis »

I think it was weird two wide columns.

So not congalines, really. Shall we call it elven Linedance? :p

I had my friend once launch a flank charge with his Black knights into the flank of my Empire knights. He got stuck because on the other side sat my warrior priest with Crown of Command. :sexy:

It is not all about attack, attack and attack. That is the wrong way to look at controlling the the movement phase. You can controlling the movement just aswell by forcing the enemy to make bad attacks. Some units are better when taking the charge. Eternal guards are really one of them.

While many see the WE army as an army that must attack OR just hang back and bowline the enemy to death, I believe it can work even better as a counter-attack army. Make the opponent think he is in charge, that he is dictating the move. More often than not, the feeling of being the one who makes the charges makes you think you are the one who dictate the flow of battle. But as von Manstein showed, the counter-attack may be the most devastating strategy.
Leafstalker wrote:Nothing more beautiful then seeing a massive Bret charge stall into the formed ranks of the Eternal Guard... my Highborn Ramesesis had to harden his heart as he dueled with the Bret Lords and cut them down.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Moose123 »

That is a beautiful post!
I am glad to have read it.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Ramesesis »

:o That is probably the nicest thing anyone have ever said about my posts, ever!
Leafstalker wrote:Nothing more beautiful then seeing a massive Bret charge stall into the formed ranks of the Eternal Guard... my Highborn Ramesesis had to harden his heart as he dueled with the Bret Lords and cut them down.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Sethayla »

In that vein, Ramesesis, would you say that our good "charge taking" units, which we can use to set up a counter attack, are Eternal Guard, treekin, and a Treeman? Or would you say Treemen are better at taking charges to leave treekin the ability to hit the flank (which is harder for treekin because they are a bit less mobile than the treeman)?

I find this very interesting because I see a very promising army build which centers around 2-3 charge taking units, a couple of ranged units, and a 2-3 charge countering units.

The difficulty in this lies in points of course. Charge-taking units for WE tend to be pricy.

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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Moose123 »

Take a triple tree list with 2 units of 6 treekin and a unit of 8-10 wild riders or a big block of wardancers.

Top of with a life mage and pray for regrowth!
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Imp »

That’s 2133p in Lord, Special and Rare which requires a game of just under 3k to fit in enough core to make it legal. :smirk:

Unfortunately you can’t do a legal triple treeman list with two units of 6 treekin and a lifeweaver in a 2,5k list. Knock one or both treekin units down to 3 or 4 and its doable. It’s possible in a 2,6k list (ETC standard) though. In both cases you have to skip the wildriders. :)
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Moose123 »

Okay, my revised counter strike list

Life weaver

2 units of 6 treekin

2 treemen

Whatever you want.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by thesustainablecenter »

Just pray you don't run into the dual flaming cannons from deamons! Oh wait there only 135 points you say and there on a chariot? Oh there a new book too? Ok then prepare to face 2 flaming cannons half the games you play from now on :angry:
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Moose123 »

Yeah exactly what wood elf needed to see, more counter shooting and it is flaming to boot!
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Ramesesis »

I am seriously happy I do not have to face daemons. Ok, my mate Tom have collected some over thhe years and are talking about putting together a proper army. But he is into full Nurgle so no ugy cannoons.
That has to be one of the silliest things GW created ever. Why a skull chunking cannons? That is a chariot an dirt cheap! Compare the cost with the Empires great cannon and... Gw seem to have toned down lots of what was in the Daemon army earlier. Only to replace it with a few must have units. That are OP aswell. Khorne relish in blood soaked close combat. What do we give them? Oh, yes! A cannon chariot that chunks out flaming skulls!

Beyond silly, really. And despite all the fickleness and randomness they put into thearmy, which is quite in character I guess, they give them some overcompensating silly toys.

But, if they now can shoot our tree allies cinder, maybe it is another reason to take more EG and hope for the best.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Moose123 »

So how would a Loren Star do against a daemon prince supported by a unit with a champion. Seems like an ugly situation :smoke:
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by popisdead »

I faced a Slaanesh DP and he worked the EG picking them apart turn after turn.
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