How to Use Eternal Guard

[Moose123]

Or getting hit by a few swordmaster missiles

[subcoud]

I don't see there to be any value in taking a horde or large unit of them as a result.

Taking a big unit of them i think it is the only option to counter measure a big unit of chaos warriors. Wyssan aside which will not be casted during our first round of combat (probably our opponent will save his dispell scroll for this spell) they can resist for 2 turns if they outnumber the enemy enough to be steadfast. (EG models are cheaper than chaos warriors). Also consider that it has been clarified in the errata section of the GW site that the stone of rebirth can be used more than once per game, so combined with the healing potion and/or the lore of life attribute and the shining scales (if i translated correctly,-1 to hit in CC) will make your lord leading them a very tough opponent, and maybe the only infantry character that will ressist to a vampire with Red Fury, Quickblood, The Ogre's Blade, and The Other Tricksters's Shard. He has a higher initiative so the vampire will not repeat failed rolls to hit thanks to his quickblood. If also you opt to risk putting your BSB with the toughness potion and the stone of crystal lake with them hoping that he will probably survive enough or 2 other naked and expendable heros and the Spellweaver in the 2nd rank with the harp casting Wyssan then things are getting really serious by the time she has to be moved in the front it is very probable that the enemy will be fleeing and if not she can always cast Horros or transform herself to a great fire dragon. A 4th levell wizard will have 1 of Ambra, Horros or Kadon for sure. Think about it

[subcoud]

i also read that many people like to give them the razor banner. Bear in mind gentlemen that they are always str 3 and against chaos knights are 45 points lost. If Wyssan is cast upon them the Chaos knights will still save on a 3+. Isn't it beteer to spend 5 points more and give them the banner of midwinter which it has been clarified in the errata section of GW site that it can be activated at the beginning of the opponents turn?

[popisdead]

a Horde of them opens them up to just taking a pounding.

The current meta of a medium sized bus (20-30) with the three heroes has it's advantages.

What does the Banner of Midwinter do? Unbreakable for a turn? at that point you are delaying the inevitable, not mitigating weaknesses.

[subcoud]

for 2 turns if activated at the beggining of your own turn. Remember that now even if 1 model stays alive your opponent gains 0 victory points. A horde of them means that they will probably be steadfast against chaos warriors (against clanrat slaves i do not think they need to) then when starting losing models, stubborn if joined by a character later on and if you do not want to risk at all or the lord is dead unbreakable for 2 turns. They are one of the best units to block the enemy's best unit leaded by characters with the equipment mentioned above. Then while delaying them a counter charge from a unit of Wild Riders with Faoghir shall break them and an big unit of infatry has just 10% probability escaping them. So you do not have to pursue even. And I repeat if you use a 4th level spellweaver beasts she will 100% have 1 of: Ambra, Anraheir, Horros, and Kadon. So she will diminuish their numbers with Ambra and/or in close combat each of the other 3 spells can give the combat, and if you outnumber them enough they probably break even before the Wild Rider's arrival. What i am afraid of is Teclis with Shadow and Vilitch. (I did not buy the newly published book yet). Infernal gateway can make your unit disappear but they will not take them in CC even with EG. (Teclis has T2). On the other hand WE are the best army imo to kill swiftly lone wizards. But this discussion belongs to another thread. Anyway under these circumstances i do not see many weaknesse. Also consider that with the banner of midwinter they will be immune to treason of tzeencth for 1 turn. And with Gwytherc's Horn for 2 turns. Treason of tzeentch is worse than any magic missile for large units. If we can make it to give them also some magic resistance with a character they are one of the best units imo.

[tmarichards]

If you're planning on taking them to counter Chaos Warriors, surely you'd be better off taking 2-3 units of Dryads and redirecting instead of feeding a 450+pt unit into a grinder? It seems to me that a better way to counter WoC would be to play to our strengths and try and avoid them instead of trying to beat them at their own game.

[greatcrusade08]

surely the best counter to a small unit of chaos knights is a machine gun highborn over two turns..

[Noght]

surely the best counter to a small unit of chaos knights is a machine gun highborn over two turns..

NEVER gets its points back. Still using a S3 Bow. Waywatchers vs Knights is probably better.

[Moose123]

Glade Guard versus knights is probably better!

[subcoud]

[quote="tmarichards"]If you're planning on taking them to counter Chaos Warriors, surely you'd be better off taking 2-3 units of Dryads and redirecting instead of feeding a 450+pt unit into a grinder? [quote="Moose123"] Glade Guard versus knights is probably better! This is also a tattic, a pair of 2 great eagles which are cheaper could be disturbing for them but the game will tend to a draw and he will kill 2 or 3 units of dryads as dryads cannot flee from a charge. My plan is how to counter and then KILL the mutated scum not just keeping them busy with cheap units for the whole game. This is easier for a WE army. The tempting thing is run them down and capture their standards with an army that does not offer such obvious tattics like other armies do. I will be much happier and satisfied-first for playing-if i do so with a-not so shooty-WE army than with 3 cannons, 2 steam tanks, magic or a smaller unit of White Lions. And ways exist imo. What i cannot immagine yet is how to kill a Spirit Swallower Keeper Of Secrets

[popisdead]

Glade Guard versus knights is probably better!

I dunno, 1/2+ saves are annoyingly good vs WE.

[Noght]

Glade Guard versus knights is probably better!

I dunno, 1/2+ saves are annoyingly good vs WE.

Probably, what's the difference of a 6 KB?

[Mist Walker]

Glade Guard versus knights is probably better!

I dunno, 1/2+ saves are annoyingly good vs WE.

Probably, what's the difference of a 6 KB?

Against a 1+ save, T4 at short range. Glade guard have a 3/53 chance while waywatchers have a 10/54 chance of killing a knight.

[Moose123]

Of course waywatchers are better 1v1 but you get two glade guard shots for each waywatcher shot and the glade guard shots are not short range dependant like waywatchers. Waywatchers do have the tools to stay within short range however.
Glade guard are also much better against everything else than way watchers are, except lone characters.

I think a good tool for knight slaying could be a highborn on an eagle, either rocking a great weapon or an ogre blade.

[subcoud]

Of course waywatchers are better 1v1 but you get two glade guard shots for each waywatcher shot and the glade guard shots

I think a good tool for knight slaying could be a highborn on an eagle, either rocking a great weapon or an ogre blade.

but you get a Wild Rider for each Waywatcher shot and if you give THEM the Razor standard chaos knights will save on a 4+ if charged and with Wyssan on a 5+ and if they have not the mark of Slaanesh (they will probably do, all chaos players want to avoid panic tests if possible), they will test for fear on a 7 if the spectral gem is within 6" and if they have had a loss from Callagh's claw on subsequent charges by another unit of WR they will test for fear on a 6. If the 2nd unit has Faoghir they will probably flee with 2 dices. (imo neither the spectral gem-50 points-or Callagh are worth taking them just giving ideas). Furthermore if we start 2nd WR can be sacrificed(?) to charge and kill a powerfull wizard-hierophant who got inside a unit wanting to avoid shooting. A Highborn on eagle is fresh meat for the 6 bolt throwers of the greenskins and their 2 catapults.

[Noght]

Of course waywatchers are better 1v1 but you get two glade guard shots for each waywatcher shot and the glade guard shots

I think a good tool for knight slaying could be a highborn on an eagle, either rocking a great weapon or an ogre blade.

but you get a Wild Rider for each Waywatcher shot and if you give THEM the Razor standard chaos knights will save on a 4+ if charged and with Wyssan on a 5+ and if they have not the mark of Slaanesh (they will probably do, all chaos players want to avoid panic tests if possible), they will test for fear on a 7 if the spectral gem is within 6" and if they have had a loss from Callagh's claw on subsequent charges by another unit of WR they will test for fear on a 6. If the 2nd unit has Faoghir they will probably flee with 2 dices. (imo neither the spectral gem-50 points-or Callagh are worth taking them just giving ideas). Furthermore if we start 2nd WR can be sacrificed(?) to charge and kill a powerfull wizard-hierophant who got inside a unit wanting to avoid shooting. A Highborn on eagle is fresh meat for the 6 bolt throwers of the greenskins and their 2 catapults.

Wow. Stream of consciousness FTW. So 3-4 magic items and a spell to get a combo to kill Chaos Knights? Good Luck?

Or you could use a small stubborn unit of EGuard (title of the thread) to pass a Stubborn test after losing, and they will lose, and then punch them in the flank with a Treeman, Treekin or Moose's Eagle Highborn.

[subcoud]

Or you could use a small stubborn unit of EGuard (title of the thread) to pass a Stubborn test after losing, and they will lose, and then punch them in the flank with a Treeman, Treekin or Moose's Eagle Highborn.

i just replied to other people who first mentioned other units in this thread. Maybe a Treeman is more effective (Tree Kin i don't see how with 65 points each against encorselled weapons if they still have them) but my aim is to exchange ideas and discuss units which can stand and do damage against all races. A Treeman is not such a unit imo and i expalain my opinion in ANOTHER thread

[Noght]

Or you could use a small stubborn unit of EGuard (title of the thread) to pass a Stubborn test after losing, and they will lose, and then punch them in the flank with a Treeman, Treekin or Moose's Eagle Highborn.

i just replied to other people who first mentioned other units in this thread. Maybe a Treeman is more effective (Tree Kin i don't see how with 65 points each against encorselled weapons if they still have them) but my aim is to exchange ideas and discuss units which can stand and do damage against all races. A Treeman is not such a unit imo and i expalain my opinion in ANOTHER thread

Well my response included EGuard and something else, they hold and something else kills (3 options given).

Seriously, a Chaos Knight with a single model in base vs. a Treeman or 3 Kin gets shredded.

Oh, and chill. Embrace the space bar and return key....

Besides WE blow vs High Armor saves, be they Chaos or Knights.

[subcoud]

Well my response included EGuard and something else, they hold and something else kills (3 options given).

Seriously, a Chaos Knight with a single model in base vs. a Treeman or 3 Kin gets shredded.

Oh, and chill. Embrace the space bar and return key....

Besides WE blow vs High Armor saves, be they Chaos or Knights.

1)yes. I wasn't mentioning your response i answered what you wrote in brackets.

2) a Treeman has AS 3 and Tree Kin 4+ T6 and T5, S6 and S5. Chaos Knights have 1 wound but AS 1+ so it isprobable that will also take 1 wound by 3TK. If they charged with a banner the 3TK will have to test on 7 at best if the Highborn is within 12"

3) if an AS of 3+ at maximum (probably chaos warriors will have halberds so 4+) is the same with an AS of 1+ having to rely mostly on lethal shots and wardancer's killing blow ok. But i did't mention chaos knights at first. I mentioned a big unit of chaos warriors where the main problem is not their AS but their 2 str 5 attacks with halberds I5 T4 against our T3. Besides...

[Mist Walker]

Of course waywatchers are better 1v1 but you get two glade guard shots for each waywatcher shot and the glade guard shots are not short range dependant like waywatchers. Waywatchers do have the tools to stay within short range however.
Glade guard are also much better against everything else than way watchers are, except lone characters.

Waywatchers are better 1v3 and only lose out at long range due to volume of fire which even then isn't a full double effectiveness for the glade guard. On top of that the waytwatchers are more mobile, can be in short range turn one, and can march and shoot.

As to the eternal guard, they're a WoC player's dream in that they're effectively free combat res. The only thing that would keep a treeman safe in the flank is its stubborn.

Subcoud and Noght play nicely.

[Moose123]

Of course waywatchers are better 1v1 but you get two glade guard shots for each waywatcher shot and the glade guard shots are not short range dependant like waywatchers. Waywatchers do have the tools to stay within short range however.
Glade guard are also much better against everything else than way watchers are, except lone characters.

Waywatchers are better 1v3 and only lose out at long range due to volume of fire which even then isn't a full double effectiveness for the glade guard. On top of that the waytwatchers are more mobile, can be in short range turn one, and can march and shoot.

As to the eternal guard, they're a WoC player's dream in that they're effectively free combat res. The only thing that would keep a treeman safe in the flank is its stubborn.

Subcoud and Noght play nicely.

Ok, you win I will admit my wrong assumption. It's because you provided legitimate evidence, not because you are a mod

Eternal guard will get eaten alive by chaos warriors, especially so if the warriors don't have any characters for the highborn to challenge out. Direct as many of those strength five attacks as possible on the highbron to take out the only thing in the eternal guard unit capable of killing stuff.

[Azaireal]

Ok, you win I will admit my wrong assumption. It's because you provided legitimate evidence, not because you are a mod

Eternal guard will get eaten alive by chaos warriors, especially so if the warriors don't have any characters for the highborn to challenge out. Direct as many of those strength five attacks as possible on the highbron to take out the only thing in the eternal guard unit capable of killing stuff.

Ah, Four models can attack the highborn (maybe six if you have the frontage matched exactly correct, or even just two if they are unlucky). Highborn and Eternal Guard are hit on 4+.

So we need 3 ranks, 1 banner, and the lord needs to step up. 1 of: Horros, Wild Form, Pelt, (unbuffed) Stoneskin, or Rhymer's Harpe, makes the unit have a decent chance to not lose. War Banner would help too.

Take a noble with Sword of Might, Glitter Armor, and whatever to reduce damage to the unit?

[Moose123]

Yeah, sure because the chaos player won't dispell anything or cast magic of his own

I can do it to watch,
Take 25 chaos warriors, get the charge, cast miasma, withering, enfeebling foe, soulblight, doom and darkness, curse of midnight wind, mindrazor, any other buff available to warriors of chaos.

You should kill the eternal guard in one round.

[thesustainablecenter]

Ok so I am brand new to Wood Elves, but not Fantasy, been playing since 6th edition. I read the entire post on Eternal Guard, at least starting with the posts that were in 8th edition. This is what I got...we need stubborn units (anvil's) to hold enemy units in place so we can flank with treemen, treekin, dryads etc... I think the argument has been about how best to make the ET be able to hold for a turn. That comes down to either being steadfast (lots of ranks and hoping your opponent has less ranks) or just being generically stubborn (which imo is more consistent and can be cheaper than buying ranks upon ranks of ET)

If we go the just make them stubborn route it opens up possibilities of standing in woods and rivers while fighting meaning the opponent will not be steadfast unless they too are generically stubborn or unbreakable. However, to make and keep ET stubborn we need a highborn or noble in the unit to do so. So assuming that its a Noble (b/c the Highborn, if you even have one, has better things to do) how do you keep him alive? If your 5,6 or even 7 wide (I would go 5 to reduce the # of attacks on me) he is just going to be attacked by every available model in my opponents ranks and killed. If my opponent accepts a challenge from my noble with AoN then he's an idiot. Just decline it and direct attacks against the noble and punk him. So to protect the noble I feel we need to be 10 wide, and put him way on the end of the unit. But if were 10 wide now were a horde and we should go get 30-40 guys to maximize the horde formation.

I guess going 5 wide with a noble who has Stone of Rebirth is worthwhile, since he only has 2 wounds anyway...


But even if that works I'm still concerned about getting my ET killed to a man. So if I'm going 5 wide with a noble in there how many ET should I take? 19? 14? Don't know what # or even if all my assumptions above are correct.

Help me out if you can!

[Dave Bednarek]

I agree with Noght on this one. Also consider this as well.....

I would say in almost every circumstance, because of how expensive Chaos is, we will outplace them. So why not place the EG on the opposite side, or furthest away from the hoard? Play the points denial game, and pick off other stuff. Stacking an EG unit with 3 or more characters works amazingly well in this case.

With at least an eagle, two preferably, he should never even sniff the EG. I've done this against other bad ass hoard blocks [ like lizzies] and it can work almost every time.

Other than that, if there's no way around it, I see only 1 option: Rhymer's Harp, with kitted out Highborn
BS with 1+AS
Magic Buffs

Nickel and dime with GG, WW.

AND................ plan to get TM, or TK to pile in on flank. Still if you're dead set on killing this beast of a hoard, you're fighting an uphill battle because you're going to have to get at least one\two buffs across.

Personally, I'd take a L4 Life, then and hope to get: Throne, Flesh to Stone, Shield of Thorns, and Dwellers. Yeah it's best scenario possible, but either way you should get some useful spells to utilize.

-Dave-