How to Use Eternal Guard

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HeroZero
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by HeroZero »

20 plus noble is awesome.
It only becomes awesome when you build your army around it however.

Beast magic, offensively capable but defensive heroes/lord one being a bsb, and counter charge units.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Moose123 »

Why not conga line? 10-20 eternal guard with a champ and a cheap noble maybe another command model if you value the noble over the unit, potentially backed with a life mage you could stall units for quite some time.

The unit would come in at around 250 points and could stall units with only one initiative value for a substantial amount of time, especially if supported by a lifeweaver.
And if your champ can challenge the unit becomes unkillable for a turn.
But here, cleverly disguised as a bomb, is a bomb.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by HeroZero »

Other than conga lines are douche-tastic they do work.

If going with a 20+1 I recommend bringing them with treemen.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Moose123 »

HeroZero wrote:Other than conga lines are douche-tastic they do work.
Well I'm sure no one would mind if you did it with wood elves, at least they can have a close game. Anyway, this conga line is nothing compared to what vampire counts can pull off.
But here, cleverly disguised as a bomb, is a bomb.
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If you keep saying things are going to be bad, you have a good chance of being a prophet.
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HeroZero
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by HeroZero »

Being a dill hole has nothing to do with your army's overall power level. Conga.lines and building swift reforms in conjunction with building rules are just examples of tactics we as responsible.players shouldnt support.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Superchristian »

Moose123 wrote:Why not conga line? 10-20 eternal guard with a champ and a cheap noble maybe another command model if you value the noble over the unit, potentially backed with a life mage you could stall units for quite some time.

The unit would come in at around 250 points and could stall units with only one initiative value for a substantial amount of time, especially if supported by a lifeweaver.
And if your champ can challenge the unit becomes unkillable for a turn.
Let alone, if your champ stands in front rank the enemy has direct all attacks on him and the unit is unkillable. Next round they get to strike at the unit, then you get to cast Regrowth and revive the Champion and another turn is spent.

Point is though, what do you want to achieve with stalling? 250 points is still quite a lot, compared to a 108 points dryad unit that can do a similar champion/conga trick (without stubborn, though, unless in forest). If you run EG as stallers I think you would need an alternate strategy for when you dont need the stallers, i.e. tool the noble up for killing, or tanking, or shooting or whatever... but then the unit really becomes too expensive to just use as stalling
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Moose123 »

HeroZero wrote:Being a dill hole has nothing to do with your army's overall power level. Conga.lines and building swift reforms in conjunction with building rules are just examples of tactics we as responsible.players shouldnt support.
Obviously you don't have to play in a group where conga lines are almost encouraged, you are very lucky to have such a friendly group.
But here, cleverly disguised as a bomb, is a bomb.
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If you keep saying things are going to be bad, you have a good chance of being a prophet.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by godswearhats »

Shandrakor (I think it was), you mentioned earlier that in the "bus vs. horde" debate that a bus was better. Can you elaborate on why?

Thanks!
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Silver Wolf »

Bus means less casualties and bigger static combat resolution due to ranks.
As you already know, it also means less attack.

In my opinion, EG are to squishy for hordes.
They pack a lot of attacks, but they don't have the needed strength to kill a proper combat unit in a horde vs. horde fight.
Sure, they'll kill more while they're in a horde, but they're still going to suffer a lot of casualties in return.
And since they're expensive, you are probably not going to field more than 30-35, which means that you'll start losing additional attacks from the rear rank in the second round of combat.

It really depends on the situation.
I'd say horde for facing squishy stuff, bus if you're pinning/being pinned by serious opponents (oh the horror).

For me, EG are the stubborn anchor around which the rest of your army moves.
And they're more stable in the bus formation.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Shandrakor »

godswearhats wrote:Shandrakor (I think it was), you mentioned earlier that in the "bus vs. horde" debate that a bus was better. Can you elaborate on why?
Pretty much what Silver Wolf said. If you're running horde with Eternal Guard, then you can't really effectively run The Rhymer's Harp because that character will be in the front rank too and is too squishy. That in turn makes the Eternal Guard more squishy and exposing more models to the fight means tons of possible casualties, which just isn't worth it in the end.

On the other hand, Bus format, allows you to gain a lot of static combat resolution, minimize return attacks, run The Rhymer's Harp in a non-fighting rank, and last but probably most important, negate Steadfast in the enemy. That last one being one of the huge reasons to bring Eternal Guard in the first place, since nothing else really does that in the Wood Elf list.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by godswearhats »

Thanks for clarifying!
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by MakoBoy »

If one were using a Bus for EG, with a Killy Highborn, Bsb Noble, FC, and Caster in the back with the Harp, 30-35 big unit, what other units would you include to improve Synergy? Would you bother with GG?

Im super new at all this, but i would think Eagles, Wild Riders, Treeking, Dryads and Treemen would all be good to close the noose as it were, and provide some flank protection?

Thoughts?
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Moose123 »

Probably no more than 20-40 GG, you would want to take some treekin and dryads. The treekin are the hammers and dryads act as redirectors to stop your Eg from getting crushed by multiple enemy units. Always take great eagles.

It depends on the size of the game, because until about 2400 you can't run a proper EG unit anyway...
But here, cleverly disguised as a bomb, is a bomb.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Shandrakor »

Moose123 wrote:Probably no more than 20-40 GG, you would want to take some treekin and dryads. The treekin are the hammers and dryads act as redirectors to stop your Eg from getting crushed by multiple enemy units. Always take great eagles.

It depends on the size of the game, because until about 2400 you can't run a proper EG unit anyway...
I run a proper Eternal Guard unit at 2250, and you can probably get away with it all the way down to 2000. Unfortunately, below that, you're probably pushing the limit as far as how much you can get out of the Eternal Guard while still having useful other units.
MakoBoy wrote:If one were using a Bus for EG, with a Killy Highborn, Bsb Noble, FC, and Caster in the back with the Harp, 30-35 big unit, what other units would you include to improve Synergy? Would you bother with GG?

Im super new at all this, but i would think Eagles, Wild Riders, Treeking, Dryads and Treemen would all be good to close the noose as it were, and provide some flank protection?

Thoughts?
As for this, any of the units you mentioned would work, depending on what you're fighting. Basically you're looking for a unit to do the damage to the opposition while your Eternal Guard unit holds up and negates Steadfast in the enemy so you can run them down after combat.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
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Moose123
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Moose123 »

Shandrakor wrote:I run a proper Eternal Guard unit at 2250, and you can probably get away with it all the way down to 2000. Unfortunately, below that, you're probably pushing the limit as far as how much you can get out of the Eternal Guard while still having useful other units.
Maybe we have different ideas of what a proper Eternal guard unit is...
But here, cleverly disguised as a bomb, is a bomb.
-Bullwinkle

If you keep saying things are going to be bad, you have a good chance of being a prophet.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Shandrakor »

Moose123 wrote:
Shandrakor wrote:I run a proper Eternal Guard unit at 2250, and you can probably get away with it all the way down to 2000. Unfortunately, below that, you're probably pushing the limit as far as how much you can get out of the Eternal Guard while still having useful other units.
Maybe we have different ideas of what a proper Eternal guard unit is...
What's proper to you? 24-26 with Full Command, Razor Banner, a Highborn, BSB, and Spellweaver in 2250 seems proper to me. In 2000 points you'd probably have to make do with 2 Nobles and a Spellweaver, running the Eternal Guard as a special choice.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by NonnoSte »

Do you think that at 2500 points is it worth taking the 4th character in an eternal guard bus? Could an extra noble add something to the unit? (assuming that highborn, bsb and beastweaver with the harp are mandatory)
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by godswearhats »

I run 7 characters in the unit at 2500 points. Highborn, Spellweaver (with Harp), BSB and 4 Eternal Guard kindred nobles. I give one of the Nobles an Obsidian Lodestone (so that the unit has a 2+ ward vs spells) and kit out the Highborn for handling challenges.

So yes, I think the extra Noble is good - even just as another target for Savage Beast of Horros.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by NonnoSte »

Wow...that's quite a bit extreme. But surely it's funny with a savage beast on.
Why the kindred on nobles?

My only concern at that point is to have a single unit that costs 1500+ points.

The last match i played my opponent cast Dwellers with IF on the second turn, killing both the Highborn and the Spellweaver.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by godswearhats »

The EG kindred gets them 5+ AS and an extra attack for just 5 points. Seems like a good deal!

Yep, Dwellers and Final Transmutation have the potential to wreck the unit. I don't run that unit vs armies that have the potential to use spells like that :-) e.g. I've used it vs Vampires, Daemons and WoC, but I probably wouldn't use it against other Elves or Empire.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

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Shandrakor wrote: What's proper to you? 24-26 with Full Command, Razor Banner, a Highborn, BSB, and Spellweaver in 2250 seems proper to me. In 2000 points you'd probably have to make do with 2 Nobles and a Spellweaver, running the Eternal Guard as a special choice.
32, with completely kitted out characters. That means level 4 on the spellweaver, I think you skipped this in your list if memory serves.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by Jamesaet3 »

Eternal guard are a good unit in a horde formation. There ws5 is great, however, t3 s3 is not. You can put rhymers harp with it but then you'll just lose your spellweaver and that is a double whammy. Your best bet is to cast wildform on them, and that turns them into WoC

So:
Wildform on Unit, or regeneration, or Hunt of Kurnous.
Curse on the other unit
Rhymers Harp
BSB
General with gw

That is your best bet, add a dryad unit or treeman to support and its a very nasty combo.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by darksaga »

The EG kindred gets them 5+ AS and an extra attack for just 5 points. Seems like a good deal!
Why not normal nobles with great weapons (especially if you play under ETC rules) ? A lot more killing power.
Put flame weapons on 1 of them for regen prevention (the usual bsb kit actually, since bsb will be staying in 2nd row).
The question is just what other gear to put on nobles to keep them alive longer, maybe armors with 4+ ward or 3+ non magical ward ...
if any of the nobles die you can put forward the champ and command models and still keep the wizard and bsb back.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by godswearhats »

darksaga wrote:Why not normal nobles with great weapons (especially if you play under ETC rules) ? A lot more killing power.
Several reasons. First off, I don't like striking last - a unit of Ogres will wreck my Eternal Guard before I get a chance to kill them if my front rank all has Great Weapons. The primary tactic is to use Savage Beast of Horros, which will give the whole front rank S7 which is more than enough to wreck everything I want to attack. Even with just S5 from Wyssan's, I'd rather be striking at I7 than last.
Put flame weapons on 1 of them for regen prevention (the usual bsb kit actually, since bsb will be staying in 2nd row).
Yep, this can certainly help. I build out the front row with kit to help face the army or scenarios I'm going to be playing.
The question is just what other gear to put on nobles to keep them alive longer, maybe armors with 4+ ward or 3+ non magical ward ...
if any of the nobles die you can put forward the champ and command models and still keep the wizard and bsb back.
Yes, and this is definitely a trade off. I tend to kit up the Highborn but not the Nobles. I have a list posted here that shows my normal build.
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Re: How to Use Eternal Guard

Post by darksaga »

Ehm, under ETC rules we get ASF, so you still hit under initiative order, which makes it exactly the same as in your version just that they have great weapons.
That also removes the fickle magic problem, or at least deflects it since you still keep some stopping power and if you actually cast it then you will destroy Anything no matter what toughness.

Yes, I have seen your list, t3, as5 (ward5?) still seems a bit squishy. if you put some gliterring armors and similar i 'd go a long way in keeping you alive i think?
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