How to Use Eternal Guard
Moderator: Council of Elders
- Manit0u
- Newcomer
- Posts: 47
- Joined: 06 Jun 2013, 08:45
- Armies I play: Wood Elves, Dark Elves
- Location: Lublin, Poland
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
I think that you should build EG like DE build spearmen - 20-30 strong unit with sole purpose of taking and holding charges, opening the enemy for flanking by dryads, waywatchers etc.
The best build I came up for that is putting a spellweaver with rhymer's harp and bsb with obsidian lodestone into the unit. You get stubborn, nice CR and 5++/2++ vs spells on the unit. Give them razor standard and you now have plenty of S4 AP attacks so whatever charges you should take casualties.
The best build I came up for that is putting a spellweaver with rhymer's harp and bsb with obsidian lodestone into the unit. You get stubborn, nice CR and 5++/2++ vs spells on the unit. Give them razor standard and you now have plenty of S4 AP attacks so whatever charges you should take casualties.
Time is precious, waste it wisely.
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
I am interested in eternal guard congalines, keep your bsb in a unit of 14 eternal guard with a champion. It would work very well for stalling a unit for a turn or two.
But here, cleverly disguised as a bomb, is a bomb.
-Bullwinkle
If you keep saying things are going to be bad, you have a good chance of being a prophet.
-Isaac Bashevis Singer
-Bullwinkle
If you keep saying things are going to be bad, you have a good chance of being a prophet.
-Isaac Bashevis Singer
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
You can do the conga lines with Dryads in woods and we have a couple Treemen casting Treesinging per turn, not unreasonable to protect flanks this way.
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
I made a little combat simulator a while ago and had some fun stimulating eg fights.
As an example:
I put a unit of twenty eternal guard (pv12) against twenty orc big unz with additional hand weapons (pv9).
The simulator ran 250 rounds of combat between these two and the results are somewhat depressing:
The eg ran away in 81 cases after the first round. The big unz ran 62 times. Both units lost combat without running around 30 times, in the other cases the result was a draw.
On average, the eg suffered 5.39 casualties per simulation. The orcs 4.20.
Considering the orcs only costing 75% of the elves, this is a somewhat sad outcome and shows that the eg are indeed overpriced.
However, the second round of combat... If the elves made it that far, helps. The spears allow extra attacks and the orcs lose their choppas.The results for the remaining 102 combat simulations had the elves running another 19 times, the orcs ran 40 times. this brings the total tally to 100 simulations in which the elves ran, 102 that saw the orcs running. The 48 simulations that had both units still in combat after two rounds then gave the advantage further to the elves with another 13 times vs 22 times. So after three rounds of combat:
The elves ran 113 times.
The orcs ran 124 times.
The combat kept going another 13 times.
This is in grand total (I would say) a draw and suggests the elves to be 33% overpriced. But then, this itself takes no account of the special rules or other statistics such as the elves'higher movement.
Particularly the animosity and the eternal guard's special rule should be considered. A noble in the unit would have made a big difference in keeping the elves from fleeing in the first round resulting in a much more one sided outcome.
My opinion?
After 250 combat simulations I find eternal guard to be slightly overpriced, maybe one point or such. Moreover it's clear that their role isn't combat winning (and definitely not causing casualties)... They're more flexible units and should be estimated as such.
As an example:
I put a unit of twenty eternal guard (pv12) against twenty orc big unz with additional hand weapons (pv9).
The simulator ran 250 rounds of combat between these two and the results are somewhat depressing:
The eg ran away in 81 cases after the first round. The big unz ran 62 times. Both units lost combat without running around 30 times, in the other cases the result was a draw.
On average, the eg suffered 5.39 casualties per simulation. The orcs 4.20.
Considering the orcs only costing 75% of the elves, this is a somewhat sad outcome and shows that the eg are indeed overpriced.
However, the second round of combat... If the elves made it that far, helps. The spears allow extra attacks and the orcs lose their choppas.The results for the remaining 102 combat simulations had the elves running another 19 times, the orcs ran 40 times. this brings the total tally to 100 simulations in which the elves ran, 102 that saw the orcs running. The 48 simulations that had both units still in combat after two rounds then gave the advantage further to the elves with another 13 times vs 22 times. So after three rounds of combat:
The elves ran 113 times.
The orcs ran 124 times.
The combat kept going another 13 times.
This is in grand total (I would say) a draw and suggests the elves to be 33% overpriced. But then, this itself takes no account of the special rules or other statistics such as the elves'higher movement.
Particularly the animosity and the eternal guard's special rule should be considered. A noble in the unit would have made a big difference in keeping the elves from fleeing in the first round resulting in a much more one sided outcome.
My opinion?
After 250 combat simulations I find eternal guard to be slightly overpriced, maybe one point or such. Moreover it's clear that their role isn't combat winning (and definitely not causing casualties)... They're more flexible units and should be estimated as such.
Treeman Tactics:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=28052
Dryad Tactics:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=28005
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=28052
Dryad Tactics:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=28005
- Noght
- Bladesinger
- Posts: 727
- Joined: 10 Jan 2011, 13:53
- Armies I play: Empire, Wood Elves, Orcs & Goblins
- Location: Normal, IL
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
No doubt they are overpriced. However their greatest strength is Stubborn with a Highborn or Noble, no way for the simulation to factor that in.
Orcs can suffer from Animosity also so they end up getting into weird situations (read losing situations) because of it, there is a bit on a price discount for the unreliablity.
What's the price for High Elf Spearmen (forget DE, they are silly)?
Orcs can suffer from Animosity also so they end up getting into weird situations (read losing situations) because of it, there is a bit on a price discount for the unreliablity.
What's the price for High Elf Spearmen (forget DE, they are silly)?
"Spirit of the Game arguments are used by Role Players who get their A$$es kicked by Wargammers."
- FriedTaterExplosion
- Bladesinger
- Posts: 662
- Joined: 12 Feb 2006, 19:57
- Armies I play: Wood Elves, Dwarfs, and Salamanders
- Location: United States- Vermont
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
Those are all good points. Units aren't priced in isolation. Some armies pay a premium for what is cheaper in a different army. EG are the only "traditional" ranked unit that the WEs can utilize.
And yes, stubborn is nice. Very nice.
And yes, stubborn is nice. Very nice.
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
I agree.
In fact, that's kind of my point. Looking at it just from the purpose of combat, eternal guard definitely is overpriced seeing as they perform on par with orc big unz.
But taking into consideration stubborn and the higher movement rate as extra value for the eternal guard and on the other hand, taking the animosity as devaluation for the orcs, the result is a lot fairer.
Overpriced? Maybe, a bit.
But all in all, still a competitive unit!
Planing to do some more simulations with some of the other units, or with different opposition soon ...
In fact, that's kind of my point. Looking at it just from the purpose of combat, eternal guard definitely is overpriced seeing as they perform on par with orc big unz.
But taking into consideration stubborn and the higher movement rate as extra value for the eternal guard and on the other hand, taking the animosity as devaluation for the orcs, the result is a lot fairer.
Overpriced? Maybe, a bit.
But all in all, still a competitive unit!
Planing to do some more simulations with some of the other units, or with different opposition soon ...
Treeman Tactics:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=28052
Dryad Tactics:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=28005
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=28052
Dryad Tactics:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=28005
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
While Skaven Slaves and Goblins are 2 and 3 PPM I won't feel DE Spearmen are overpriced.Noght wrote:.
What's the price for High Elf Spearmen (forget DE, they are silly)?
-
- Trusted Bowman
- Posts: 162
- Joined: 01 Jul 2013, 22:19
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
plenty of S4 attacks? how come? mistype? they are S3? and the bsb will have 4 attacks tops?Manit0u wrote: The best build I came up for that is putting a spellweaver with rhymer's harp and bsb with obsidian lodestone into the unit. You get stubborn, nice CR and 5++/2++ vs spells on the unit. Give them razor standard and you now have plenty of S4 AP attacks so whatever charges you should take casualties.
- Noght
- Bladesinger
- Posts: 727
- Joined: 10 Jan 2011, 13:53
- Armies I play: Empire, Wood Elves, Orcs & Goblins
- Location: Normal, IL
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
popisdead wrote:While Skaven Slaves and Goblins are 2 and 3 PPM I won't feel DE Spearmen are overpriced.Noght wrote:.
What's the price for High Elf Spearmen (forget DE, they are silly)?
"Spirit of the Game arguments are used by Role Players who get their A$$es kicked by Wargammers."
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
Maybe this thread could use a lil bit of revamp? Meaning one clear post of +/- of the unit and what character support it needs with what gear, or at least a few versions of what can work.
The way it is info is spread out all over and a bit hard to come by for new people imo.
The way it is info is spread out all over and a bit hard to come by for new people imo.
- Noght
- Bladesinger
- Posts: 727
- Joined: 10 Jan 2011, 13:53
- Armies I play: Empire, Wood Elves, Orcs & Goblins
- Location: Normal, IL
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
Use them in Bus formation with piles of Characters, kitted out with Defensive gear.
"Spirit of the Game arguments are used by Role Players who get their A$$es kicked by Wargammers."
- Shandrakor
- Shadow Sentinel
- Posts: 2397
- Joined: 12 Jul 2010, 11:09
- Armies I play: Wood Elves
- Location: Ohio, USA
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
Eternal Guard's role hasn't really changed since the current book was released. What has changed is the base rules making them much better because Wood Elves have nothing else that does their role effectively. That role is to add ranks and command models, which is so much more important in 8th edition than previously. The addition of the Steadfast rule in 8th edition almost mandates the necessity for ranked units (or ones that put out so much damage it doesn't matter).darksaga wrote:Maybe this thread could use a lil bit of revamp? Meaning one clear post of +/- of the unit and what character support it needs with what gear, or at least a few versions of what can work.
The way it is info is spread out all over and a bit hard to come by for new people imo.
Suffice to say, Eternal Guard provide that benefit (ranks/command) for Wood Elves and most of this thread is just talking about the following:
1.) How Over-Priced are Eternal Guard?
2.) What Quantity of Models?
3.) Bus or Horde?
4.) What Character Support?
5.) What Support Units?
To that I'll answer:
1.) Fairly over-priced, though so is most of the Wood Elf book. So deal with it? Eternal Guard are still useful!
2.) Generally around 15-25 below 2k, between 24-30 in 2-2.5k, add more for larger games or if you feel it necessary to combat template weapons.
3.) Bus (5 wide, go deep)
4.) In smaller games (1250-2000) just a BSB probably. Beyond that, either Highborn, BSB, and Spellweaver or Noble, BSB, and Spellweaver. All defensive kits, Spellweaver with the Rhymer's Harp.
5.) Dryads, Treekin, Treemen, Great Eagle Nobles, you name it really.
An example gear load-out (for 2250) that I use is as follows:
Lords: [561] : [562.5 cap]
(246) Highborn: Armor of Silvered Steel + Dawnstone + Annoyance of Nettlings + Great Weapon
(315) Spellweaver: Lvl 3 Wiz + Dispel Scroll + Rhymer's Harp [Lore of Beasts]
Heroes: [142]
(142) Noble: Battle Standard Bearer + Stone of Rebirth + Dragonhelm + Rageth's Wildfire Blades + Light Armor
Hope that helps for consolidating the info you want.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
Why so defensive on the heroes? Why not something that can actually kill something? Say The Spirit Sword?
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
Because then the heroes all die to rank and file soldiers. Nobody wants that...except your opponents.
But here, cleverly disguised as a bomb, is a bomb.
-Bullwinkle
If you keep saying things are going to be bad, you have a good chance of being a prophet.
-Isaac Bashevis Singer
-Bullwinkle
If you keep saying things are going to be bad, you have a good chance of being a prophet.
-Isaac Bashevis Singer
- Beithir Seun
- The Philosopher
- Posts: 17411
- Joined: 18 Apr 2006, 18:03
- Armies I play: Wood Elves, Bretonnians | Sylvaneth, Soulblight Gravelords | Astra Militarum, Tau
- Location: Staffordshire, UK
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
What Moose said. You need the characters to stay alive; killing stuff is a secondary concern.
Plus the Spirit Sword is as likely to get your character killed as it is to kill any enemies.
Plus the Spirit Sword is as likely to get your character killed as it is to kill any enemies.
Carrot and Stick ~ Beithir's Blog
- Shandrakor
- Shadow Sentinel
- Posts: 2397
- Joined: 12 Jul 2010, 11:09
- Armies I play: Wood Elves
- Location: Ohio, USA
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
Because, generally speaking, a Great Weapon, for offense, is a non-magical option that beats all the magical options that don't make it impossible to have a good defense as well. That and what Beithir and Moose said.ElBacone wrote:Why so defensive on the heroes? Why not something that can actually kill something? Say The Spirit Sword?
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
I've been testing a unit if 20+1 character in multiple units. 7x3
Rather than tarpitting turn after turn its more of a mildly offensive speed bump.
Note this tactic requires beast magic becuase STR 3 has killed nothing ever.
Rather than tarpitting turn after turn its more of a mildly offensive speed bump.
Note this tactic requires beast magic becuase STR 3 has killed nothing ever.
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
What about 21 with the Unbreakable banner as a speed bump? 50 point banner is cheaper than a hero.
- Beithir Seun
- The Philosopher
- Posts: 17411
- Joined: 18 Apr 2006, 18:03
- Armies I play: Wood Elves, Bretonnians | Sylvaneth, Soulblight Gravelords | Astra Militarum, Tau
- Location: Staffordshire, UK
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
popisdead wrote:What about 21 with the Unbreakable banner as a speed bump? 50 point banner is cheaper than a hero.
But it only works for one turn, and 21 with the Unbreakable banner is still 300+ points that you're basically throwing away (because once they're "breakable" again, they'll die in droves and run...)
Carrot and Stick ~ Beithir's Blog
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
So how does that differ from 21 with a hero being less viable?
- Shandrakor
- Shadow Sentinel
- Posts: 2397
- Joined: 12 Jul 2010, 11:09
- Armies I play: Wood Elves
- Location: Ohio, USA
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
21 with a hero is Stubborn down to the last model if the hero survives. Much easier to make a survivable hero than a survivable Eternal Guard unit. Also, Stubborn Leadership 9 is much > Unbreakable for 1 combat round.popisdead wrote:So how does that differ from 21 with a hero being less viable?
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
- Beithir Seun
- The Philosopher
- Posts: 17411
- Joined: 18 Apr 2006, 18:03
- Armies I play: Wood Elves, Bretonnians | Sylvaneth, Soulblight Gravelords | Astra Militarum, Tau
- Location: Staffordshire, UK
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
To be honest, I wouldn't use Eternal Guard in any capacity as a "speed bump". If you want to throw 300 points away on speed bumps, that's your business
A unit with a character though will at least stick around for more than a turn and has more versatility/flexibility than simply being an (expensive) speed bump. In an ideal world, you'd only need a single turn to deliver a killer blow so your Eternal Guard will only need to hold for a turn, but in my experience it's better to have a unit that will stick around 97% of the time each turn (with a BSB) than one that will only stick around for a single turn guaranteed before it suffers from all the normal modifiers that will see it running. At 300+ points for a speed bump unit, that's the difference between victory and defeat, and it can flip on the result of a single bad combat. To be honest, if you're going to invest in several units of Eternal Guard and use them offensively then you might as well do it properly and spend the extra points to make them reliable...
EDIT: In short, what Shandrakor said (how often have we heard that? )
A unit with a character though will at least stick around for more than a turn and has more versatility/flexibility than simply being an (expensive) speed bump. In an ideal world, you'd only need a single turn to deliver a killer blow so your Eternal Guard will only need to hold for a turn, but in my experience it's better to have a unit that will stick around 97% of the time each turn (with a BSB) than one that will only stick around for a single turn guaranteed before it suffers from all the normal modifiers that will see it running. At 300+ points for a speed bump unit, that's the difference between victory and defeat, and it can flip on the result of a single bad combat. To be honest, if you're going to invest in several units of Eternal Guard and use them offensively then you might as well do it properly and spend the extra points to make them reliable...
EDIT: In short, what Shandrakor said (how often have we heard that? )
Carrot and Stick ~ Beithir's Blog
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
My assumption here is the unit is stubborn with the hero, the hero without the unit is not stubborn.Shandrakor wrote: 21 with a hero is Stubborn down to the last model if the hero survives. Much easier to make a survivable hero than a survivable Eternal Guard unit. Also, Stubborn Leadership 9 is much > Unbreakable for 1 combat round.
Is there something special about EG conferring Stubborn I missed?
- Shandrakor
- Shadow Sentinel
- Posts: 2397
- Joined: 12 Jul 2010, 11:09
- Armies I play: Wood Elves
- Location: Ohio, USA
Re: How to Use Eternal Guard
That it takes more than 1 turn to get rid of that quantity of wounds of Eternal Guard, giving time to ambush from another angle with another unit (i.e. Treekin, Treeman, Dryads, Great Eagle Noble, you name it)? In that amount of time, most other Wood Elven units will run away.popisdead wrote:My assumption here is the unit is stubborn with the hero, the hero without the unit is not stubborn.
Is there something special about EG conferring Stubborn I missed?
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620