Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby FriedTaterExplosion » 13 Dec 2013, 19:09

I'm a big fan of both Lore of Life and Lore of Beasts. As mentioned, it really depends on the army list.

Currently I'm running a Triple Tree list and, of course, I'm finding Lore of Life to be so much more helpful for that list. With my eternal guard/character heavy list I find Lore of Beasts to be more useful to buff up the killy power of my highborn and BSB.

Some comments that I have about the various spells in the lores:

Earthblood- Not a great signature- but as Ioreth starmantle mentioned- it can be worth casting just to heal a wound back on a treeman that is nearby. 8+ to restore a wound? Either throw two dice at it, so it likely goes of, or save one dice for the end of the magic phase to have a 50% chance of successfully casting it with a level 4 lifeweaver.

Shield of Thorns: I've used this successfully to kill spirit hosts, hex wraiths and other ethereals, by charging an eagle or eagle rider into the them and then casthing shield of thorns on the eagle. 2d6 str 4 hits (if Throne is already in play) or even 2d6 str 3 hits can eliminate an ethereal unit before combat even begins. Plus, again, the lore attribute.

Transformation of Kadon: This spell gets lots of hate. It can work. I've run a mage in the second rank of my eternal guard bus. Turned the mage into a great fire dragon and due to foot print he moves to the front rank. kill a bunch of stuff with him and end the spell if needed and he pops back into the second rank.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby Shandrakor » 13 Dec 2013, 23:28

WizzyWarlock wrote:Transformation of Kadon
This is the spell I tend to switch out for Wyssan's as it's a spell I'd only use as a 'last stand' sort of move. In the Wood Elf army it removes your level 4 bonus to dispels, stops you casting all those lovely other spells that you need, and also will very likely end in your wizards death when the next round the opponent dispels it and your naked mage is standing there in front of a unit of death dealers. If we had Beasts on Level 2's then I'd certainly leave it on one of those, as a level 2 mage is very cheap, especially without any equipment, while the potential damage from a Mountain Chimera charge could be just devastating. But unfortunately, we can't, so this gets removed for Wyssans.

This is actually untrue. The Wizard is still a Wizard while transformed, and as such, still gets their dispel ability. Transformation of Kadon explicitly states the following:
BRB pg. 493 wrote:... Whilst transformed, the Wizard cannot channel or cast spells, and all of his magic items and mundane equipment (armour, weapons, etc.) temporarily stop working. ...

This says absolutely nothing about losing the ability to dispel spells or negating the Wizard's Wizard levels. That means you can still dispel with your Wizard level, even though you cannot channel or cast other spells while Transformation of Kadon is in play.

Further, while I agree that you wouldn't typically use Transformation of Kadon to rush your Wizard headlong into a fight unprotected, I will say that Wood Elves do have the capability to send their Wizards into combat relatively shielded should you desire.

FriedTaterExplosion gave a good example of thus:
FriedTaterExplosion wrote:Transformation of Kadon: This spell gets lots of hate. It can work. I've run a mage in the second rank of my eternal guard bus. Turned the mage into a great fire dragon and due to foot print he moves to the front rank. kill a bunch of stuff with him and end the spell if needed and he pops back into the second rank.

Personally, I tend to use the Mountain Chimera more often than the Great Fire Dragon, but that's probably personal preference and depends on what your Wizard is in base contact with when you transform. Suffice to say, an average of 15 WS7 S7 Poisoned Attacks with a S7 Thunderstomp and another average of 7 auto-hits from a S4 breath weapon tends to leave a rather large gaping hole wherever they landed. That being all from the relative safety of the second rank of a unit of Eternal Guard where it doesn't really matter if the spell goes off or not, it's just icing on the cake.

As for Ioreth Starmantle's comments on Beasts being awful for Brettonians, I wouldn't really know too well for them, but for Wood Elves it's a far different story. Transformation of Kadon not working while mounted might be another reason why Brettonians don't like the lore. Not so much a problem for Wood Elves, where the majority of our characters are on foot or mounted on Great Eagles.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby WizzyWarlock » 14 Dec 2013, 08:18

Shandrakor wrote:This is actually untrue. The Wizard is still a Wizard while transformed, and as such, still gets their dispel ability.

It's always been played that the Wizard basically stops being a Wizard, at least where I've seen it used, but you're right, it doesn't say anything about losing the ability to dispel. Nicely spotted! I'll remember that one for sure. :)
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby Mollesvinet » 14 Dec 2013, 16:40

@godswearhats from main article
but several comments have led me to believe that it is very useful vs armies with T3 crewed War Machines


When using magic against them, you use the toughness value of the warmachine which is usually 7. The point of flock of doom is that the amount of hits are high, so the chances to roll one or more sixes are pretty good. The warmachines you mentioned here doesn't have armor, so all it takes is 3 sixes in total. (Or two backed up by an extra from shooting for example)
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby chickenbane » 14 Dec 2013, 17:01

popisdead wrote:In a way I like that this discussion is happening and relatively positive (if only 'I feel' vs logical expiations) and I really like that it isn't internet flaming.

But still, ?!?!?!?


If you like internet flaming, the Warhammer Forum is the place. I find most other forums are quite civil. :)
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby godswearhats » 14 Dec 2013, 18:37

Mollesvinet wrote:
When using magic against them, you use the toughness value of the warmachine which is usually 7.


Of course! See how little I play against normal warmachines? All the ones I play against seem to have armor and or wards.

Thanks, I'll fix that reference.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby Ioreth Starmantle » 14 Dec 2013, 18:43

It's slightly off topic, but I find the politeness and civility of a forum very closely tied to its colour scheme.

This place is a haven of good people & understanding. The High Elf and Bretonnian fora are too. I find places like the Dark Elf and Vampire fora (Black with shades of black) much more hostile. Even if it's the same person posting on different sites, they will act differently and I'm certain it's the colours of the site. This also matches Warseer, which has a terrible atmosphere.

Colours really do alter people's moods. Gentle greens make coming here a relaxing and conciliatory experience.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby godswearhats » 14 Dec 2013, 18:55

Also, people who want to win play the evil armies.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby itsuperslug » 18 Dec 2013, 11:03

I run a fairly character heavy, fast cav/ eagle style list so I usually go with beast magic.

Life looks good but when you remember that cav take two wounds to 'heal' it takes away one of the best spells in the lore, regrowth.

The reasons I like/ use beasts is as follows-

Wyssans Wildform
Who doesn't like +1 T & S, makes my wild riders cause my opponents to quake with fear!

Pann's Impenetrable Pelt
As I'm running a character heavy list this provides protection where wood elves wouldn't normally have it. Being able to bubble cast it to affect all my characters is very nice.

The Amber Spear
As the only high S, multi wound shooting we can currently get is a must take if you face monsters or chariot spam.

The Curse of Anraheir
My army being fast cav and flyers is all about the movement so being able to control my enemies movement just puts the icing on the cake.

The Savage Beast of Horros
Running 3 nobles in my list, being able to buff them at the right moment makes what would be an even combat into a game winning one, for not just one guy but all of them, too good a spell to say no to.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby popisdead » 20 Dec 2013, 23:28

chickenbane wrote:
popisdead wrote:In a way I like that this discussion is happening and relatively positive (if only 'I feel' vs logical expiations) and I really like that it isn't internet flaming.

But still, ?!?!?!?


If you like internet flaming, the Warhammer Forum is the place. I find most other forums are quite civil. :)


But you responded with a troll?
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby godswearhats » 17 Jan 2014, 02:09

Updated Lore of Life and Athel Loren having played them each some more.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby irishfarmer » 17 Jan 2014, 15:16

I really liked this discussion. I am sorry that I missed it before. Thanks for the hard work on this GWH.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby godswearhats » 17 Jan 2014, 17:47

No worries, glad it's useful!
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby Gwill_of_the_Woods » 29 Jan 2014, 17:59

Personally I prefer the Lore of Life. In my circle of friends I am allowed to take Life & Beasts with a Spellsinger, I just thought I'd mention that.

Life suits my play style better. I think that a lot of the Beasts spells limits the casting to characters only. So the only spells that I particularly like are Wyssan's, Savage Beast & Amber Spear. I managed to get off Transformation once, turned into a Fire Dragon then got charged by a horde of TK skellies only to lose combat and flee. I was in a state of absolute disbelief! :lol:

I can however take a lvl 1 and take Wyssan's. Though I still rarely take both, unless 2000 plus.
In saying that I had a rather AWESOME battle where I had Orion and Savage Beast of Horros which turned him into the BRINGER OF DEATH earning his points back! :evil:

I usually take a level 4 Life-weaver and hope for Throne of Vines, Flesh to Stone, Dwellers & Shield of Thorns. I always opt out of Earthblood & Awakening the wood, for reasons already mentioned. Regrowth I am rather impartial to, it just doesn't do much for me. Or I should say Hasn't done much for me. I've never really gotten it off :(

Flesh to Stone has been a saviour SO many times. Sending my Wild Riders into a charge with T7, Treekin with T9, Treeman with T10. I love it!

I aim to give my Treekin or Treeman Shield of Thorns as they can take a round of combat. It is also amazing if you send them into a building assault as a unit of 3 get all of their attacks, plus they get the effect of the Shield.

Like mentioned throughout this topic, Dwellers is like a Nuclear Threat. Throne always gets let through, plus flesh to stone because of the psychological terror of dwellers.
Dwellers has taken the majority of a unit of HE greatswords of the board just before my T7 WR unleashed hell. It has also taken a unit of heavily armoured Empire knights off in one turn. I love it! :D Then, again as mentioned, in my experience it draws out a dispel scroll fairly early on. Hopefully irresistible force, then because I'm on the Throne, very little happens.

I have up to now fielded my Life-weaver on foot, but I am becoming interested in giving her a steed.I think I'd be a bit scared about running he too far out. I usually cast then send them off on their merry way to kill.

I never use AL. Treesinging gets cast by my Treeman ("Treeman-Billy").

I do hope that our lower level casters can take Life & Beasts in the new release. I really like a lvl1 beast wizard.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby godswearhats » 29 Jan 2014, 19:29

Your meta is very different to mine. Nobody *ever* lets Throne of Vines through for me. And if it does go off, it gets dispelled next turn as a high priority. They don't like miscast protection because that just enables six-dicing of Dwellers, nor being able to give my guys +4 T.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby hutobega » 29 Jan 2014, 21:27

in the tournament I am in we can max throw 4 dice... but i am seeing a 2 dice throne being a nice first cast.. WORST case scenario they use dice to dispel it... then i have more dice than them to cast dwellers =P and toughness and restore wounds... I think it's still a good tactic?
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby godswearhats » 29 Jan 2014, 22:00

Yes. The big downside of Life is that Throne is not the signature spell, so in 1/10 games you won't get it.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby godswearhats » 04 Apr 2014, 19:12

Added this tactica to the LEAF.

leaf/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby chickenbane » 01 May 2014, 10:36

Yea, Throne is not a spell that my group let through very often either. I'm really looking forward to Dark & High magic, possibly in the same game!
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby popisdead » 01 May 2014, 14:40

Shandrakor wrote:As for Ioreth Starmantle's comments on Beasts being awful for Brettonians,.


I guess Starmantle has never seen two Bretonnian busses with an AOE Savage Beast of Horros. Didn't seem to terrible when I saw it play.
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Re: Tactica: Magic Lores for Wood Elves

Postby Jamesaet3 » 01 May 2014, 18:41

The best combo in beasts, is Wildform on your unit if eternal guard, then the curse on the enemy unit, for this example. Warrior of Chaos.

Now you have ws5 vs ws5, s4 t4 2A, and we are hitting on 4 and they are hitting on 5's. Only difference is armor save. Oh and we get extra ranks for spears.
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