AoS Shooting in/out combat
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- Bladesinger
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AoS Shooting in/out combat
Hey guys
I've started playing the AoS and I'm loving it. The thing that has a few mixed feelings within my gaming group is the ability to shoot into and out of combat.
I understand that you can move, then shoot, then Charge, and fight in combat. But I'm not sure about the shooting restrictions whilst remaining in combat.
If a model with missile attacks is in combat can it still fire at a different unit out of combat? Can it fire at the unit it's in combat with?
I'd appreciate your help.
Thanks
I've started playing the AoS and I'm loving it. The thing that has a few mixed feelings within my gaming group is the ability to shoot into and out of combat.
I understand that you can move, then shoot, then Charge, and fight in combat. But I'm not sure about the shooting restrictions whilst remaining in combat.
If a model with missile attacks is in combat can it still fire at a different unit out of combat? Can it fire at the unit it's in combat with?
I'd appreciate your help.
Thanks
Long live the King in the Woods!!!
Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
Yes and yes. You can shoot whilst in combat at either the enemy you are striking or out of combat. I can't even see anything restricting you from splitting your fire. Crazy? Maybe, but it reminds me of legolas ninja style fighting!
Your friends just need to stop comparing to 8th addition and go with it.
Your friends just need to stop comparing to 8th addition and go with it.
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- Trusted Bowman
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
Remember that there's no charge reactions in AoS, so without stand and shoot ranged units would be pretty trash in AoS if they couldn't shoot into combat. Units get into melee on turn 2 or even turn 1 pretty easily, so it's not like 8th edition where you could have 2-3 turns of shooting before melee combat happened in most games.
I would bring up that shooting at people who are rather close to you is not outside the realm of possibility, but that hardly matters in a game like AoS where dudes have hammer-cloaks that throw lightning hammers at their foes, or blow people up with heaven lanterns or whatever. It's a game mechanic that is in the game because it's high fantasy and the game requires it to balance ranged unit viability with melee units in a game where things melee other things almost out of the gate on turn 1.
I would bring up that shooting at people who are rather close to you is not outside the realm of possibility, but that hardly matters in a game like AoS where dudes have hammer-cloaks that throw lightning hammers at their foes, or blow people up with heaven lanterns or whatever. It's a game mechanic that is in the game because it's high fantasy and the game requires it to balance ranged unit viability with melee units in a game where things melee other things almost out of the gate on turn 1.
- Billthesurly
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
Exactly. It's a new game with new rules.Jezandu wrote:Your friends just need to stop comparing to 8th addition and go with it.
"And now for something completely different..."
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
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- Bladesinger
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
I love the idea. The image that most people conjure up is fluid Legolas shooting with intermittent blade action.
Glade guard just got better. I was a little worried about them.
Glade guard just got better. I was a little worried about them.
Long live the King in the Woods!!!
- Nicholas Nitro
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
This mechanic has completely ruined what little love remained for 8th. Also one of the two reasons I didn't jump into KoW. Does anyone know if those 9th age writers are considering shoot into combat? Now that I have it I can't play without it.
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AoS is the greatest!
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
WFB and KoW are essentially battle simulation games, where the individual models don't matter. You could easily play them with pieces of paper cut out in the unit's footprint without issue, especially KoW. Individual models in AoS matter more, like in skirmish games or other games with low model counts, and while they have distinct strengths they have to be effective in more than one phase to be worth using.
As such, shooting has to be able to target units in combat - or else shooting models are a waste of space, because manyare so specialized towards ranged attacks. Most armies in AoS work this way because of the specializations from WFB carrying over - you'll notice that the Sigmarines have no such limitations, and are often effective in both melee and shooting, and possibly the hero phase.
Either way, it does certainly fit the fantasy of a game based on heroic fantasy combat a lot more than the fantasy army sim that WFB was.
As such, shooting has to be able to target units in combat - or else shooting models are a waste of space, because manyare so specialized towards ranged attacks. Most armies in AoS work this way because of the specializations from WFB carrying over - you'll notice that the Sigmarines have no such limitations, and are often effective in both melee and shooting, and possibly the hero phase.
Either way, it does certainly fit the fantasy of a game based on heroic fantasy combat a lot more than the fantasy army sim that WFB was.
- Billthesurly
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
Mass combat games cannot have units shooting into combat. The core rules of WFB were taken from tabletop wargames which featured battles between Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and such from time periods of 3000 BC to 1450 AD. What is called the "ancients" or pre-gunpowder period.Nicholas Nitro wrote:This mechanic has completely ruined what little love remained for 8th. Also one of the two reasons I didn't jump into KoW. Does anyone know if those 9th age writers are considering shoot into combat? Now that I have it I can't play without it.
Each figure on the board represented 20 to 50 actual fighting troops. In AoS it is one to one.
In the ancients period it was not possible for a unit of 1000 archers to shoot into a melee between a friendly and an enemy unit. They would hit as many friends as enemy. However in a small, fantasy skirmish game it is not only possible it is desirable as the phases and interaction between the individual figures tends to blur.
Compare them not for they are apples to oranges.
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
- Nicholas Nitro
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
I guess I've never thought of the models as being representative of a score more troops.
Does a hero killing a model mean the hero killed that many troops?
Even if 'historical' armies held a tendency not to shoot into melees featuring their own favorite troops, they wouldn't feel that way about slaves or a mercenary force. And being fantasy I like to think that the best archers/hunters on the planet are coordinated and accurate enough to do it without shooting themselves.
Does a hero killing a model mean the hero killed that many troops?
Even if 'historical' armies held a tendency not to shoot into melees featuring their own favorite troops, they wouldn't feel that way about slaves or a mercenary force. And being fantasy I like to think that the best archers/hunters on the planet are coordinated and accurate enough to do it without shooting themselves.
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AoS is the greatest!
AoS is the greatest!
- Billthesurly
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
The "Hero" figure, or in historical mass combat games the "general/king/chieftan" represents the leader himself and includes his personal retainers, bodyguards or staff. They are never as powerful in combat as the heroes of fantasy games and their effect on the game is usually moral rather than physical. Their effect on combat is generally factored into the mass combat tables and is not done on an individual figure by figure basis. In some games the generals are purely representational and have no individual, physical effect on the game at all.
And you're quite right about fantasy. Troops doing things like shooting from or into melee is exactly the kind of thing Legolas and Co do. They're fantasy Wood Elves! Of course they can shoot in melee! It's like an army of Robin Hoods! It's actually very refreshing to see Elves shooting like legendary elves are supposed to shoot and not merely like very good human archers. The only fly in the ointment is that in AoS, Empire or Bretonnian archers and Dwarf crossbows would be able to do the exact same thing - just not as well.
And you're quite right about fantasy. Troops doing things like shooting from or into melee is exactly the kind of thing Legolas and Co do. They're fantasy Wood Elves! Of course they can shoot in melee! It's like an army of Robin Hoods! It's actually very refreshing to see Elves shooting like legendary elves are supposed to shoot and not merely like very good human archers. The only fly in the ointment is that in AoS, Empire or Bretonnian archers and Dwarf crossbows would be able to do the exact same thing - just not as well.
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
- Nicholas Nitro
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
Ok, I get you now Bill. I'm having so much fun with the mechanic that I plan all my moves around it. With Treemen teleporting from forest to forest(even out of combats), and the GG positioned behind a thin EG defensive line, shooting into combat lets you harass your enemies in a slow and methodical new way.
If the enemy is moving on you too quickly... charge a treeman out of the woods against their rear most unit. Treeman is such a juicy target to have out on his own, they'll probably try to overwhelm him. On your next turn, if your enemy tried to swarm the treeman you might send your other 2 in to help (GuardianDeepWood), or retreat him all the way back to your front line. Now you've got your opponent dancing back and forth, or having vital units clogged down by combat. Anything that reaches your EG with be either weakened or alone, and then your archers loose those bodkins!
Greatest battles ever!
If the enemy is moving on you too quickly... charge a treeman out of the woods against their rear most unit. Treeman is such a juicy target to have out on his own, they'll probably try to overwhelm him. On your next turn, if your enemy tried to swarm the treeman you might send your other 2 in to help (GuardianDeepWood), or retreat him all the way back to your front line. Now you've got your opponent dancing back and forth, or having vital units clogged down by combat. Anything that reaches your EG with be either weakened or alone, and then your archers loose those bodkins!
Greatest battles ever!
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AoS is the greatest!
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
I'm looking at the Age of Sigmar errata that was released a bit ago for "competitive" play at stores/tournaments.
In it, it states...
In it, it states...
This seems like it completely undermines the rule Glade Guard get, which is absolutely disappointing, and means they're even less effective since any engagement makes them go from To Hit/To Wound of 3+/4+ to a 5+/5+.Errata wrote:"Under Page 4,
If the attack is being made with a Ranged Weapon in the Shooting phase, additional requirements apply.
Units with any models engaged with enemies (within 3'' of an enemy model) may not perform shooting attacks in the shooting phase. Special Rules which specifically allow for Shooting Attacks to be made in the Combat Phase (such as the Skull Cannons' Grind their Bones, Seize their Skulls ability) circumvent this limitation.
When targeting an enemy unit with models engaged with allied models, only those which are greater than 3'' of an allied model are eligible to take Wounds. These models must be the closest to the firing unit, who cannot shoot through allied models. When assigning the Wound Pool, should the closest model to the firing unit be within 3'' of an ally, or be an ally, all remaining Wounds are discounted and the attack ends."
- Billthesurly
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
I guess my questions would be;
1) Who posted those "errata"?
2) If not GW, by whose authority did they do so?
3) And if not GW, who says we have to pay any attention to them?
I find nothing that is "official GW AoS errata" on the net although there seem to be quite a few pretenders.
1) Who posted those "errata"?
2) If not GW, by whose authority did they do so?
3) And if not GW, who says we have to pay any attention to them?
I find nothing that is "official GW AoS errata" on the net although there seem to be quite a few pretenders.
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
- Nicholas Nitro
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
Yeah I'm with Bill. Where did you hear this nonsense!
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AoS is the greatest!
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
It's what my group found. It's listed here, which they found from a GW store's website that reside an hour away from where we live -- or so they claim. I pointed out that it says unofficial in the opening statement; however, they're adamant that this is a supposed errata that is being used for in-store play that was making its rounds at one point.Nicholas Nitro wrote:Yeah I'm with Bill. Where did you hear this nonsense!
It doesn't hurt me too much that my group would use these rules -- it just really hurts the Glade Guard's ability to be shooting while engaged in combat, since being 5+/5+ in melee is rough.
- Nicholas Nitro
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
Oh I see what you're saying now. Optional comps are what AoS was designed for, but convincing people to conform to them is the hard part. You gave the impression that it was official.
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AoS is the greatest!
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Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
Sorry, up until I had investigated it (my gaming group had not thoroughly looked at the... very first paragraph), I was under the impression it was an actual errata. Since they're going by those rules, which to be fair aren't bad, it does put my Wood Elves in a bit of a conundrum since my Glade Guard can no longer rely on shooting in the shooting phase if they are considered "engaged" within 3'' of an enemy. I basically have to re-think the strategy entirely now.Nicholas Nitro wrote:Oh I see what you're saying now. Optional comps are what AoS was designed for, but convincing people to conform to them is the hard part. You gave the impression that it was official.
Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
There are no restrictions.Gwill_of_the_Woods wrote:But I'm not sure about the shooting restrictions whilst remaining in combat.
If a model with missile attacks is in combat can it still fire at a different unit out of combat? Can it fire at the unit it's in combat with?
Yes.
Yes.
Re: AoS Shooting in/out combat
There are 4 pages of rules... You can basically do whatever yoy want it does not matter