Fire on the March Question

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Fire on the March Question

Postby Billthesurly » 02 Jun 2015, 01:58

My friend and I have had a problem come up lately concerning the Fire on the March rule. He believes that the Quick to Fire rule, concerning not taking the -1 for moving and shooting, does not apply to marching fast cav or skirmishers because "marching" is a separate thing from "moving".

The rules that pertain state; "Fire on the March. Fast Cavalry armed with missile weapons are expert at shooting from horseback (or wolfback!) and can therefore shoot during a turn in which they marched or reformed (providing their weapon doesn't have the Move or Fire special rule.) However, the normal -1 To Hit penalty for moving and shooting still applies.

"Quick to Fire. Quick to Fire weapons do not suffer the usual -1 To Hit penalty for moving and shooting - we assume that the wielders can aim and fire them swiftly enough to remain accurate. Furthermore..."

The unit is question is a unit of javelin armed fast cavalry. I say they do not take a -1 for marching and shooting. He says that they take the -1 because marching is different from moving.

What say you?
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby frogboy » 02 Jun 2015, 02:36

Marching is done in the movement phase init ?

:confused:
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Hyarion » 02 Jun 2015, 02:46

I misread the original post. Take this as a lesson about the dangers of dispensing advice while trying to put an infant to sleep, oh well...
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Blackcat » 02 Jun 2015, 05:50

It is simple, marching is moving. Quick to fire do not take the -1 penalty for moving and shooting and I believe they can stand and shoot no matter the situation. You marched but as fast cavalry you can still shoot on the march. You have quick to fire which negates the penalty for moving and shooting. The rules are really simple regarding this.
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby youngseward » 02 Jun 2015, 08:14

Fast cav suffer the "normal" penalty and quick to fire do not suffer the "usual" penalty. Seems pretty clear that this is referring to the same moving and firing penalty, and I don't see any reason fast cav would override quick to fire. Really seems clear cut tbh.
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Aezeal » 02 Jun 2015, 09:52

Wait...

is the unit in question the sisters.. because their javelins do not have quick to fire right?
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Billthesurly » 02 Jun 2015, 13:02

Aezeal wrote:Wait...

is the unit in question the sisters.. because their javelins do not have quick to fire right?


Well I don't know about the entry in our army book because while I have purchased the SotT I have not yet painted or used them. However the standard "javelin", the weapon as listed in the BRB, is Quick to Fire. If the Sisters of the Thorn have basic javelins then they too are Quick to Fire whether the army book lists them so or not.
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Billthesurly » 02 Jun 2015, 13:06

Thanks for all the comments guys. I am afraid it was all due to a misunderstanding. My friend thought I was claiming that Fast Cav got no -1 to hit because they were Fast Cav. Once he understood that I was speaking of Fast Cav with Quick to Fire weapons the issue was resolved.

I believe he was confusing my Wood Elf Fast Cav with bows with my Amazonian Fast Cav who have javelins.

It was late. We were tired. Alcohol was involved.... :o
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby NonnoSte » 02 Jun 2015, 14:00

Billthesurly wrote:my Amazonian Fast Cav who have javelins.


forgive my OT intrusion, but do you mean you actually play Amazons? I just saw the cover of the unofficial codex and I was wondering where I could find their ruleset.
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby youngseward » 02 Jun 2015, 14:22

Billthesurly, sisters of the thorn have unique javelins, they are poisoned and armorial armour piercing, but don't have quick to fire. Kinda like how eternal guard have the only spears in the game that grant an extra fighting rank even on the charge.
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Aezeal » 02 Jun 2015, 14:34

youngseward wrote:Billthesurly, sisters of the thorn have unique javelins, they are poisoned and armorial armour piercing, but don't have quick to fire. Kinda like how eternal guard have the only spears in the game that grant an extra fighting rank even on the charge.


What is the difference in the rules between regular spears and the EG spears then?
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Boskie43 » 02 Jun 2015, 15:30

Aezeal wrote:
youngseward wrote:Billthesurly, sisters of the thorn have unique javelins, they are poisoned and armorial armour piercing, but don't have quick to fire. Kinda like how eternal guard have the only spears in the game that grant an extra fighting rank even on the charge.


What is the difference in the rules between regular spears and the EG spears then?



I uh... don't want to be "That guy".... but uhh ummm....

You're playing your EG wrong if you are doing that. All Spears, Asrai or Regular, have the fight in extra rank rule. You have to go into the main rule book to see what that rule says. Pretty clear We DO NOT get that on the charge.



-edit- Saying that - I still feel EG are MUCH better than people give them credit - Asrai players AND our opponents as a rule :)
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Aezeal » 02 Jun 2015, 15:36

hmm I was wondering wether it was me or it was him... Only think different about our spears is that our cavarly can use them (and their AP ability) after the charge I think,
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Boskie43 » 02 Jun 2015, 15:46

Def him. :nod:

I can/do agree with you on the Spears for the Cav. I realize its still a "spear" and would prefer to avoid the arguements we had in the book right before this when it's clearly named a spear in our magic items :confused:

But... If our sisters are stuck (rightly so IMO) without having quick to fire javelins because of the way the item is written in the book, then I agree that our Cav continues to use their "special weapon" in subsequent rounds.

Saying that, If an opponent has a major disagreement/really "butt hurt" by it - I'll play it either way as I've found if wild riders are still there in turn 2, we did something wrong :paranoid: (I suppose the same goes to glade riders too)
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Billthesurly » 02 Jun 2015, 18:31

NonnoSte wrote:
Billthesurly wrote:my Amazonian Fast Cav who have javelins.


forgive my OT intrusion, but do you mean you actually play Amazons? I just saw the cover of the unofficial codex and I was wondering where I could find their ruleset.


It's an army list I created long ago and have kept updated throughout the years. I find the Amazon Army found online to be somewhat cheezy. Mine has been described as being the only totally cheeseless army created by a gamer. It does not often win but it also does not often get wiped off the table. I figure that means that it is fairly well balanced. The fact that it does not often flat out win means that nobody objects to playing against it. The figures do double duty as my Wood Elf army... it's just an all female Wood Elf army whose members happen to be "dressed" for a hot, humid Lustrian climate. :sexy:
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby frogboy » 02 Jun 2015, 19:04

Now that's fantasy at its best ! :D :thumbsup:
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Aezeal » 02 Jun 2015, 19:20

Boskie43 wrote:Def him. :nod:

I can/do agree with you on the Spears for the Cav. I realize its still a "spear" and would prefer to avoid the arguements we had in the book right before this when it's clearly named a spear in our magic items :confused:

But... If our sisters are stuck (rightly so IMO) without having quick to fire javelins because of the way the item is written in the book, then I agree that our Cav continues to use their "special weapon" in subsequent rounds.

Saying that, If an opponent has a major disagreement/really "butt hurt" by it - I'll play it either way as I've found if wild riders are still there in turn 2, we did something wrong :paranoid: (I suppose the same goes to glade riders too)


I don't really believe in glade riders.
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby NonnoSte » 02 Jun 2015, 23:01

Would it sound inappropriate if I asked you to share the product of your invention? :roll:
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Billthesurly » 03 Jun 2015, 00:22

youngseward wrote:Billthesurly, sisters of the thorn have unique javelins, they are poisoned and armorial armour piercing, but don't have quick to fire. Kinda like how eternal guard have the only spears in the game that grant an extra fighting rank even on the charge.


Blackbriar Javelins are JAVELINS. They shoot just like javelins do and therefore they are Quick to Fire just like any other javelins in the game. Quick to Fire is not specific to a unit or troop type it is specific to a weapon type. They also happen to be poisoned - however, I cannot find any mention of them being armor piercing anywhere.
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Mollesvinet » 03 Jun 2015, 00:52

But bill, following that reasoning wild riders are only armour piercing on their first turn of combat. (as normal spears are only used when charging for cavalry)

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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Billthesurly » 03 Jun 2015, 01:13

Mollesvinet wrote:But bill, following that reasoning wild riders are only armour piercing on their first turn of combat. (as normal spears are only used when charging for cavalry)

I know which of the two I prefer!


Well, if Wild Riders only have armor piercing because of their Asrai Spears, and it would appear that they do, then they do not have armor piercing on subsequent turns when they switch to hand weapons. It seems to be right there in black and white on BRB pg. 91. Wild Riders do not have a special rule that says that they somehow possess the armor piercing special rule - it is only present because of their spears. When they don't use the spear...

Unfortunate but apparently true. I don't believe that simply putting a descriptor in front of the noun changes the basic weapon type. A Blackbriar javelin is a javelin. An Asrai Spear is a spear. An Asrai Longbow is a longbow.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong here but I think claiming otherwise in these cases is a bit of a stretch.

Besides - I believe that by your argument a Wild Rider charging with his Asrai Spear would get AP - but would not get +1 strength because that is only for "spears". Somewhat silly no?
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Boskie43 » 03 Jun 2015, 03:36

Billthesurly wrote:
youngseward wrote:Billthesurly, sisters of the thorn have unique javelins, they are poisoned and armorial armour piercing, but don't have quick to fire. Kinda like how eternal guard have the only spears in the game that grant an extra fighting rank even on the charge.


Blackbriar Javelins are JAVELINS. They shoot just like javelins do and therefore they are Quick to Fire just like any other javelins in the game. Quick to Fire is not specific to a unit or troop type it is specific to a weapon type. They also happen to be poisoned - however, I cannot find any mention of them being armor piercing anywhere.



You are correct that quick to fire is not specific to a unit or troop type.
It's SPECIFICALLY tied to the rules for the weapon being used - The name, descriptor, designation, and or term is honestly immaterial . If the weapon has the rule- then the weapon has it.
In this case - the weapon very clearly Does NOT have the quick to fire rule.

Bill... we can call them whatever we want. And we can come up with whatever fluff we want:
They're poisoned, so even with a javelin we have to take EXTRA care to not scratch ourselves and thus cannot "quickly" use them while riding.
Or maybe we elves call them javelins and they are more like spear length so they take more cooridnation to throw... Who knows

The rules for the Blackbriar Javelins are on page 37 at the top under the "The Armoury of Torgovann".
Range: 12 inches
Strength: User
Special Rules: Armour Piercing, Poisoned Attacks

No mention of quick to fire.
Not sure how you couldn't see they are armor piercing... or even how you knew they caused poison if you couldn't see the armour piercing as well! :p (just poking fun, no offense intended!)

(as a side note... I agree that its dumb to use a term for an item that wouldn't have the same rules as the rest... but then again neither do our spears).
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Boskie43 » 03 Jun 2015, 03:50

Billthesurly wrote:
Mollesvinet wrote:But bill, following that reasoning wild riders are only armour piercing on their first turn of combat. (as normal spears are only used when charging for cavalry)

I know which of the two I prefer!


Well, if Wild Riders only have armor piercing because of their Asrai Spears, and it would appear that they do, then they do not have armor piercing on subsequent turns when they switch to hand weapons. It seems to be right there in black and white on BRB pg. 91. Wild Riders do not have a special rule that says that they somehow possess the armor piercing special rule - it is only present because of their spears. When they don't use the spear...

Unfortunate but apparently true. I don't believe that simply putting a descriptor in front of the noun changes the basic weapon type. A Blackbriar javelin is a javelin. An Asrai Spear is a spear. An Asrai Longbow is a longbow.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong here but I think claiming otherwise in these cases is a bit of a stretch.

Besides - I believe that by your argument a Wild Rider charging with his Asrai Spear would get AP - but would not get +1 strength because that is only for "spears". Somewhat silly no?



Not silly at all. It's literally UNDER THE RULES OF THE ITEM. The rules of the weapons being used is ALL THAT MATTERS. We have the rules of the special weapons specifically written out. Call it whatever you want (or in this case GW wants to call it) and give it rules - and bam - only those rules matter to said item. Whether you like how they name the items or not its how they chose to do this.

~which, I said it once - I'll do it again, I agree with you is dumb to do it as they have - but its what we have.
Again, same page as the Javelin (actually right next to it) - page 37 in the Welf book.

By using his arguement he is completely correct. He's following the rules of the item to crossing the T.
It specifically says you get +1 strength on the charge with an asrai spear if its a mounted model. And the spear still has the armour piercing rule while mounted. So you get both +1 strength when you charged AND the armour piercing which is under the special rules of the weapon.

The issue is with the "special weapons" rule in the BRB. It specifically says how and when to use them (which is ALL the time unless the weapon rules specify different as do the normal spears) - As well as how and when to drop them/use other items. Bretonnian rules clearly state that lances get used on the charge and then put to the side for the magic weapon/hand weapon of a character. Generic Spears - very specificaly state how they are used. Our Asrai spears are also special weapons that are not given a limitation on when to drop it/not use it anymore. As I previously said earlier in the thread - Generally I'll play I have the armour piercing in subsequent rounds. If anyone gets super upset about it I'll just drop it and move on with the game on the basis that If I'm stuck there in the later rounds the unit is dead anyways and I rarely see a reason to argue at the table over little toy men :cry:





quick edit: And as a quick side note... If an Asrai Longbow was just "a long bow" then we wouldn't get the armour piercing. It's the very fact of the matter that it is Named an Asrai Longbow that we have the armour piercing rule for them as it's given in their weapon rules (as is volley fire). We'd just be shooting normal 30 in shots instead of our awesome 30inch demonette throwers named as an Asrai Longbow...


(if people don't get that... Demonettes are s3 armour piercing... we get that at 30inches... thus we throw demonettes in my mind EVERY time I shoot with Glade Guard!!!! :evil: )
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Aezeal » 03 Jun 2015, 08:20

Billthesurly wrote:
youngseward wrote:Billthesurly, sisters of the thorn have unique javelins, they are poisoned and armorial armour piercing, but don't have quick to fire. Kinda like how eternal guard have the only spears in the game that grant an extra fighting rank even on the charge.


Blackbriar Javelins are JAVELINS. They shoot just like javelins do and therefore they are Quick to Fire just like any other javelins in the game. Quick to Fire is not specific to a unit or troop type it is specific to a weapon type. They also happen to be poisoned - however, I cannot find any mention of them being armor piercing anywhere.


This is not true.

Javelins are weapons with an entry in the BRB which states quick to fire/
Blakc briar javelins have a COMPLETE rule set with damage, range and own special rules so it's a seperate item.

I agree they SHOULD have gotten quick to fire.. but they haven't.

The spear (mounted) in the BRB has a specific entry that states it's only used in the first turn of combat.

A spear is only used in a turn in which the wielder charged into combat. In subsequent turns (or if the wielder did not charge) the model uses its hand weapon.


The asrai spear does not have this.
The asrai spear (mounted) has a specific mention that it only gives +1S on the charge

The Strength bonus granted to a mounted model by an Asrai spear only applies in a turn in which the wielder charged into combat.


Why would they not have just used the wording of the BRB spear if they didn't want it to be used in the next combat phase. 1. it does NOT directly forbid use in the next phase. 2 it even clearly implies it can be used in the next phase since the +1 S isn't allowed anymore.
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Re: Fire on the March Question

Postby Mollesvinet » 03 Jun 2015, 08:59

Wow, seems the civil war mentioned in another thread is about to start out :D
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