Fast Cav Rule clarification

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Talarian
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Fast Cav Rule clarification

Post by Talarian »

Hello Cousins,

I just had a quick question regarding fast cav and their movement. My opponent and I disagreed on how fast cav can move. I was, and still am, under the impression that fast cav essentially have the liberty to wheel, reform and move as they please, as long as they don't exceed their movement -- 18 inches for GR or WR for example. So I'd be able to maneuver around a unit, reform as I please and face his rear or flank for example. To facilitate the reforming etc. I could simply take my try and place it anywhere within 18 inches.

My opponent on the other hand disagrees and I need to spend movement inches for wheeling/reforming etc.

Would anyone mind clarifying, it would be greatly appreciated.

If I was unclear throughout the post let me know and I'll do my best to clarify.

Cheers,
frenchi861
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Re: Fast Cav Rule clarification

Post by frenchi861 »

Fast Cav get free reform as much as they want. The only think you need to remember is that a model can't move more than double is movement.
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Aezeal
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Re: Fast Cav Rule clarification

Post by Aezeal »

Yes, same for skirmishers (I had that discussion last game about them).
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henrypmiller
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Re: Fast Cav Rule clarification

Post by henrypmiller »

Yup. Fast cav can reform as many times as they like during a movement.

Easiest way I think to move them is to measure from the units centre to where you want to put them then form them up how you like, round the new centre point. Just make sure that none of the models move further than their movement value and they stay 1" away from other units.
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Mollesvinet
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Re: Fast Cav Rule clarification

Post by Mollesvinet »

Although that doesn't mean they can fly, so you might have to move around something which will essentially reduce the movement measured in a straight line. For example, you may want to get to the other side of a building, but you cant measure movement over the building as you have to go around it.


Sometimes it can also be impossible to fit the reformed unit, which can block you. For example if you need to move between two units near your own table edge, but you can only fit if your unit goes 1 wide and that would take you outside the board edge. Thus you would have to move around one of the unit instead of between them.


If terrain is open though, then there is no point to look into the actual reforms and movement patterns.
Talarian
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Re: Fast Cav Rule clarification

Post by Talarian »

Excellent,

Thank you Gentlemen for the clarification - I had thought as much. And of course I wouldn't have gone through a building! Haha, but yes, point taken. Aezeal, skirmishers can move like that as well? I thought so, the same argument occurred when I was freely moving my skirmishers around.

On that note, then can move freely, but still need to have a 'front' correct? So if my opponent declares a charge they can be flanked and or rear charged.
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Re: Fast Cav Rule clarification

Post by Aezeal »

Talarian wrote:Excellent,

Thank you Gentlemen for the clarification - I had thought as much. And of course I wouldn't have gone through a building! Haha, but yes, point taken. Aezeal, skirmishers can move like that as well? I thought so, the same argument occurred when I was freely moving my skirmishers around.

On that note, then can move freely, but still need to have a 'front' correct? So if my opponent declares a charge they can be flanked and or rear charged.
Yes, after movement they need to be positioned in the right direction (front arc) for firing too I think.
In my game my opponent wanted my skirmishers (waywatchers) to do wheels etc when marching.. which like halved my movement... also he didn't want to let me move backwards.

PS this is why the +1 point for scouts is worth it.. never get more GG than needed for core.. everyother archer should be a scout.. that 1 point buys SO much flexibility.
Talarian
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Re: Fast Cav Rule clarification

Post by Talarian »

Yes, after movement they need to be positioned in the right direction (front arc) for firing too I think.
In my game my opponent wanted my skirmishers (waywatchers) to do wheels etc when marching.. which like halved my movement... also he didn't want to let me move backwards.

PS this is why the +1 point for scouts is worth it.. never get more GG than needed for core.. everyother archer should be a scout.. that 1 point buys SO much flexibility.[/quote]

Agreed! If possible, would you mind pointing out where exactly it states this in the RB? My opponent has mine and I want to show him without being 'rude', or what not, that fast cav and skirmishers can indeed move like champions.
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Re: Fast Cav Rule clarification

Post by Sidewinder »

Players are allowed to reform units consisting of models with the Fast Cavalry or the Skirmish rule as many times as they wish providing no model exceeds their maximum movement allowance or double their maximum movement allowance if the March move is being used.

By the book, a player is required to move his unit maintaining proper formations during the movement phase, this is so even with fast cav and scouts. Whether the models/movement tray is picked up from its original position and set on the table facing the desired direction in the desired formation or the movement tray/models are painstakingly moved measuring every millimeter, the end results will be the same. We know this; that is why we simply lift the models from the table and then set them down where we want them providing they are within range of their movement allowance.

If you are showing/teaching/playing/demonstrating the Skirmish or Fast Cav rules with a new player, then absolutely for the first two or three times show them exactly how the unit is moving and how it is changing its formation, wheeling, etc. Then explain to the new player that we expedite the movement phase by simply picking those models up and then setting them down where we want them staying within the models maximum move range. Do the same for a nit-picker opponent as well. For the nit-picker, point out that even though it only adds about fifteen minutes to a half hour of game time to measure out fast cav and skirmishers movement and formation changes, it will feel as if an hour of game time is being added.
... also he didn't want to let me move backwards.

Units cannot mix forward movement and backwards movement. You're opponent was correct in this regard. The simple fix is to have your Waywatchers perform an about face, move them forward the distance you desire and then perform another about face.
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Aezeal
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Re: Fast Cav Rule clarification

Post by Aezeal »

No it's kinda complicated. I first just wanted to move sidewards for 10 inch and change the direction I'm facing (so basicly free reform facing side, then move 10 inch then reform facing another the way I was coming from). But he wanted me to wheel the about 70 degrees I wanted to reform.. which takes about 4 inch of my movement. then move and then wheel again (again like 4 inch.. which means I only could really move 2 inch). I then wanted to just move 5 inch backwards or something but that wasn't allowed either (march move and moving backward not allowed) so I was only allowed to move 3 inch backwards.

IMHO I could have done both with free and unlimited reforms and marching. And after it I still could have shot at an additional -1 for move.
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Mollesvinet
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Re: Fast Cav Rule clarification

Post by Mollesvinet »

Well, I think I know what your opponent is thinking. When you do a swift reform you are not allowed to march afterwards, this much is true. But fast cavalry and skirmishers don't do swift reforms, they do free reforms. Lets look at the rule for fast cav:
BRB p. 68 wrote:FREE REFORM (Fast cavalry)
Unless it charges, a Fast Cavalry unit is allowed to reform as many times as it wishes during its move, even if it marches, provided that no model ends up moving a number of inches higher than double its Movement value.
So for fast cavalry it is very clear that you are allowed to reform during marches! Lets see for skirmishers:
BRB p. 77 wrote:FREE REFORM (Skirmishers)
A unit of Skirmishers moves, wheels, marches and charges just like other troops. However, due to the incredible flexibility of its formation, unless it charges, a skirmishing unit is allowed to reform as many times as it wishes during its move, provided that no model ends up moving a number of inches higher than double its Move value.
Although it doesn't state as specifically as the fast cav rule, it does say that you can reform during all movement except charging. Keeping the fast cav fast reform rule in mind, it should be clear that marching is included here.

Hope that helps.
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Re: Fast Cav Rule clarification

Post by Sidewinder »

...just wanted to move sidewards for 10 inch...
OK, I can see how your opponent would think that you're taking advantage by having two free wheels and by doing so gains you about 2-3 inches of movement.
The following procedure is what I do when I want my scout or fast cav unit to go to the side. Let's say I have a unit of 10 Waywatchers; they are in a 5 x 2 formation and I want them to move to the left. I separately turn each model so that they are all facing to the left of their original facing. I inform my opponent that I have taken a free reform from a 5 x 2 formation to a 2 x 5 formation. I now use the March rule and also announce that I am moving my Waywatchers 9 1/2 inches to the left. Once there, I announce that I'm reforming them from a 2 x 5 formation to a 5 x 2 formation. I then turn each model to its right.
So, I've accomplished what I wanted, remained within the rules and have not given the appearance of rule abuse.
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Aezeal
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Re: Fast Cav Rule clarification

Post by Aezeal »

Ah I think I see the problem: you still have to make the wheeling seperately: I just moved the unit so none had moved more than 10 inch in a direct line. But I guess I do need to wheel them if I want them to not just face a different direction (onlh 90-180-270-360 degrees) I thought a reform also included pivoting on the spot )and around the middle, not a real pivot around a corner.. which basicly is the wheeling which saved me quite a lot of movement.

EDIT:
I got the BRB and I think I was right. Under reform it says you can face any direction and in the pics with it it shows a unit pivoting. So if I can do that any number of times it means you can basicly just move 10"in whatever way you want. It also doesn't say it costs movement allowance. This all makes me thing that you can move the whole unit anywhere I want, facing any way as long as no single model has moved more than 10" in a straight line (not counting inpassable terrain ofc if they need ot move around it).
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