Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

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Wu Kong
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Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Wu Kong »

Okay, I've tried to probe for this a couple times, and it seems like it could be pretty static in it's use, but I can see some kind of argument for either way of breaking this down. I really would just like to hear a couple of opinions or a strong definite answer to this.

I was playing with characters on Stags and Unicorns and what have you, and my beast wizard had Pann's Pelt, which despite using, never thought of my actual Toughness after applying the spell. The spell states that it targets "characters," and it was pointed out to me that(in the instance of Savage Beast) that these spells ONLY have an effect on a character, which makes sense in terms of Savage beast, as stacking that bonus on a mount would be quite absurd. However, in Pann's Pelt, and in regards to T on MC, logically, by definition of the spell, it would take the character's Toughness from 3 to 6, but because of him being MC, he is otherwise normally treated as being T4. I was wondering if anyone knows a little more about this? I could see an argument to be made that since the character and mount share the mount's higher toughness, that Pann's Pelt would be applied to that as they are the same model, despite the mount not technically being the "Character."

Whatcha guys think? :paranoid:
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Good question.

Once you apply the errata, pg 83 says that you always use the Toughness of the mount.

So a T-test for example, is failed on a 5. Similarly, I'd say the starting T for buffs is 4 here. Once the combined model hits the table, it effectively is T4 with 3 wounds to all intents and purposes. Rider and mount attack separately, hence Savage Beast can only buff the rider. But defensively there is no way to separately attack the two, they are effectively one model. Hence T4.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Wu Kong »

Awesome! Thank you, Phil, for helping clarify. I notice you have an active presence here and appreciate your insights!

I was really confused about that, but the more I'd think about it, the more I felt like it should apply to the T4. I kind of think that Savage Beast should work on mounts as well given the lore attribute and the fact that it is the Lore of "Beasts." But, realistically, that would likely be a little intense for game play. That would effectively give a Hero on Stag 6 S7 attacks and the mount 5 S8 attacks - whole new definition of Wild Rider. I'd think if you could stack that effectively enough it could be more gruesome than a Mindrazor.

Regardless, ¡Gracias, amigo!
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Aezeal »

Page 83 – Monstrous Cavalry.
In the second paragraph, replace “All the cavalry rules…with one exception – monstrous cavalry always use the highest Wounds characteristic…” with “All the cavalry rules…with two exceptions – monstrous cavalry always use the highest Toughness and Wounds characteristics…”

PS I think this isn't the same as always uses the T of the mount Phil.

So if you boost the chars T3 to T6... it would just use that. Right? I think adding it to the T4 is not the correct way if it specifically mentions it works on the character.

it's normally a T3 rider with a T4 mount.. and using the higher T4 of the mount... or a T6 rider with a T4 mount.. so using the T6.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Millingskink »

For what it's worth I agree with Aezeal.

The spell only affects the character, and then you would select the highest.

However, I could see both sides, might as well throw it in the "Needs a FAQ that will never come" pile.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Aezeal »

Nope this isn't allowed on the pile , more important stuff there :D
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Phil Rossiter »

The question is which number is 'used' as a base for the spell. Does "always used" mean you take the 4 to add the buff to because you're not allowed to consider the 3? Or do both rider and mount retain separate stats, with the 3 sleeping as it were, only to come into play when the spell raises it to 6?

I'm now leaning towards what you guys said but I don't think it's as clear-cut as the Savage Beasts issue because there isn't that separation as with attacking. TBH Pann's Pelt is a spell I never swap for and sometimes swap out. It can be effective, especially the bubbled version but in general you want more killing power instead. You'll usually have rank and file for the enemy to attack too. Not always though I guess. Plus it's got a low CV.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Millingskink »

If it said model I'd be inclined to agree with the T7.

It's another case of wishy washy terms.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Aezeal »

Phil Rossiter wrote:The question is which number is 'used' as a base for the spell. Does "always used" mean you take the 4 to add the buff to because you're not allowed to consider the 3? Or do both rider and mount retain separate stats, with the 3 sleeping as it were, only to come into play when the spell raises it to 6?

I'm now leaning towards what you guys said but I don't think it's as clear-cut as the Savage Beasts issue because there isn't that separation as with attacking. TBH Pann's Pelt is a spell I never swap for and sometimes swap out. It can be effective, especially the bubbled version but in general you want more killing power instead. You'll usually have rank and file for the enemy to attack too. Not always though I guess. Plus it's got a low CV.
Well if you put it like that it's even more easy.

Obviously they have and retain seperate stats.. that is why there are seperate stats in the books. The fact it is only castable on characters is the only thing that makes it aply to the riders T though.. in all other instances I'd say it would get added up on the T4 of the mount.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Wu Kong »

As I thought, there isn't a definite answer. :smoke:

Upon thinking about the wording "cast on friendly character," if we take that as literal as we probably normally do, then it would seem likely that it is intended to apply to the Rider only. However, given the mechanics of a MC Model, they are for all intensive purposes the same model, correct? That allows the stipulation of being "cast on friendly character" to apply to that model, where as if it were a Demigryph Knight or something, then you could not even target that model with the spell. Or even with a TM vs TMA, you could only ever attempt to cast Pann's Pelt(Or Savage Beast) on TMA, never TM.

This idea of only being able to target characters coupled with the combined T/W stats of a MC Model, might indicate that as a MC Model, they are both target-able by the spell, and utilizing the combined stats of the model as a whole. I think there is a fairly strong argument for it this way.

In the instance of a character riding a Monster, the Monster and Rider are considered separate, which I think would definitely push for these spells to be only use-able on the character themselves. With MC, I feel like somewhere along the lines of them sharing stats(and being treated as a single model,) and being considered a "Character" would allow the higher stat to be used.

I'm not too particular either way, aside from wanting to maximize the value of these spells. It seems that this would be the only instance of Pann's Pelt where it gets tricky like this. One of the main reasons I would bring a MC Character would be to increase T and/or Wounds. I like the idea of a T4 elf, and that is the only way to accomplish this without magic. And even fluff-wise, Lore of Beasts seems to promote targeting mounted units and things of the like, so it seems odd that it would have a retrograde effect on a character build who was solely designed to synergize the pros of MC and a Lore that was in all fluff designed for "Beasts."
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Mon Cav is basically an alloy of a rider such as an elf lord (Infantry) and a mount, in this case a Unicorn or Great Stag (Monstrous Beast). This composite never uses the rules for either Infantry or Monstrous Beasts, instead it uses rules for a new kind of troop it has become, Monstrous Cavalry. There are separate stats in the books because there have to be two things to make the composite from, despite the fact that for example, you never use the rider's M stat.

Then we look at pg105, which states "the whole model....follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry". Which could easily be read as saying the T4 belongs to a character and hence is buffed to T7. I'm even starting to see the case for Savage Beast affecting the Mount's attacks now.

Which tends to support what you're saying Wu Kong.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Aezeal »

Let's just rule in in our favor :D
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Always the best policy.

:)
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Wu Kong »

Yeah, I find this to be a very debatable topic in many ways, but I think in the spirit of the game, it should affect the mount. Lore of Beasts is for the Beasts after all!

Speaking of which, a friend of mine was out playing with some TO's today, and I had him ask them and they said it affects the mounts Toughness, bringing it to 7. So at the very least, they will be playing it that way. I'm sure it could vary from place to place. I personally think Savage Beast should affect the mount, because, like I said, Beasts seems to promote use with Cavalry and such. With spells that have such limited targeting restrictions, I find it a hindrance to the Lore as a whole to make it so specific.

I'm not too worried about S. Beast because it still makes a wicked impact, and I think having a S6 4A elven steed would be a little over the top, but in the instance of Stags, I feel like they deserve theirs! :evil:
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by nXken »

The spell reads 'character', not 'model'. Hence, you up the stat of the character and not from the mount's profile.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Phil Rossiter »

But as I quoted above, pg 105 states that the whole model is subject to all the rules for characters. It is in it's entirety, effectively a character.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Aezeal »

But as mentioned... it also says that model uses the highest T - which is chose from the character stats T or the mounts stats -
The mount´s T (in this instance at least) is fixed.. the characters T stat.. being a character and thus the only one open as a target for this spell... gets increased.. from 3 to 6.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by hutobega »

This is the over thinking again guys heh. At least everyone I know would apply it to the Toughness that has been bestowed unto the riders from the mount because the model (which is the character) now just has a toughness of 4. I think in most tournaments it is the same.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Phil Rossiter »

OK, I'll try to explain my position differently.

The rider starts as Infantry and Character. The mount starts as Monstrous Beast but not Character.

The combined model is Mon Cav and Character. The mount part then has the Character rules just as much as the rider does, per pg 105.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Aezeal »

That isn't what I read.

It says it also has the rules for monstrous cavalry. And character rules say nothing about how these split profiles are handled.. and monstrous cavalry rules state what we've mentioned before. I don't think the page 105 rule changes anything that has been said since we already considered the model a valid target for the spell.

PS I think that when 9th hits this discussion will be over and then your interpretation will be the one in use.. since there will be no split profiles anymore (a shame I think btw).

PPS while I think that your mention of page 105 changes nothing I do think that the BRB basicly doesn't cover this and both points of view could still be valid.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Agree to disagree I guess.
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by Wu Kong »

I will continue to disagree vocally until all creatures of the forest have equal rights in the Lore of Beasts!

I'm pretty sure that a character who is riding a beast becomes Troop Type : Monstrous Cavalry(Character.) I believe that in "uses the highest Toughness/Wounds characteristic" we would apply the bonus +3T to the "higher Toughness" in the first place instead of retroactively applying to the weaker character. You CAN NOT attack the mount, when you attack the MC Character, who are you rolling to hit against? The character. The mount's toughness comes into play after you hit the character, the same character you buff with Pann's Pelt, who then receives the bonus to his "higher Toughness characteristic."

If our character had T4 on a T3 mount, we would be using his higher T because he is a character, but before we even applied a buff, the mount would be using the characters higher toughness anyways. I think because of MC rules utilizing the higher T, that it becomes the characters toughness for all intensive purposes, because they are in fact ONE model. One model that as a whole constitutes a "character" in terms of Savage Beast and Pann's Pelt.

Savage Beast and Pann's Pelt have a restriction to "Characters" because of the nature of those spells. +3T is pretty good, it's better than +2T from Flesh to Stone, and can be cast in a 12" bubble. +3S and +3A is awesome, and to be able to use in a 12" bubble is also really nice. Where this becomes a problem, and in the idea that "if it was cast on models" is a problem, is that these spells would break the game if their targeting restrictions weren't so limited. Imagine giving +3 S, A, and T to every elf in 24" of your mage. Every GG has 4A at S6. Waywatchers hitting with 5 attacks at S6. Wild Riders... 5 A S7+AP(not charging.) I firmly believe that the restriction to targeting characters was put in place specifically to cap the use of the spell to "deserving targets." And not just forcibly administer 1,000 lbs of crack and pcp to our entire army.

Everything about this leads me to believe that we would apply the Toughness to the "higher toughness" because as a model, that character shares that "higher toughness" before the buff even gets to him.

Also, Lore of Beasts has written into it every reason to want to create synergy with cavalry and monsters and the like. Monstrous Cavalry is just another form of Cavalry, one that benefits a fragile elf's little Toughness and Wounds. That is generally one of the main reasons to bring MC in the first place(aside from a stomp?) To think that a lore that was designed with the intention of having more capacity with these troop types and would inhibit or diminish the value of it's spells when used in conjunction with these troops seems very counter-intuitive.

Well, anyways, I'm not very worried about it, because between my friends and I, we didn't even consider not using the mount's toughness, but after hearing a mention about these spells, this idea popped into my head and I had to get with everyone and chop it up. I figured some other people might have more experience with this.

Judging by the "I was right." thread, we might not have many people with a strong affiliation for this lore.

Hutobega has the right idea, that is the same logic my friends and most of the people I know would go by, and I think a lot of tournaments likely play like this as well.

Anyways, guys, we gotta save the Forest and it's beautiful inhabitants! What will happen to us elves if we let all the Unicorns die? Surely we'd be next! :paranoid:
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Re: Pann's Pelt and Monsterous Cavalry

Post by NonnoSte »

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