The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

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tomrobo23
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The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by tomrobo23 »

So i'm looking at the rules for the girls again, ignoring the gnawing frustration at GW's complete incompetence at rules writing again. This led to a query with one interpretation of the rules people came up with. The single model answer on the eagle.

Basically if you treat the model as a single character riding a monstrous mount as some people suggest then according to the rules and the improvisation the single character model can only fire one weapon. This means they are not in fact two separate characters as their rules dictate and means the idea of treating them as a single model is pretty much impossible as you are at this point ignoring several rules and making an already meh choice into something pretty terrible.
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by dapz »

Saw this in masters FAQ
How do Naestra and Arahan, Sisters of Twilight work? (p59) Naestra and Arahan are treated as two separate characters on the same mount, so rules that affects a single character (Savage Beast of Horros etc) only affects one of the sisters. If riding Gwindalor they are monstrous cavalry (so toughness 4 and 3 wounds each). Use rules for multiple characters within the same unit for distributing hits between them. Template hits causes one hit on each sister (if different strength on the hole randomize who is hit by the high strength attack). When both sisters are alive they cannot use Look out Sir when within 3" of other units (since they are not a lone character). For effects that remove entire models from the game (such Dwellers Below, Final Transmutation, Purple Sun etc), follow the rules in 2.22 (2 tests and only sisters that fails the test are removed, if at least one sister passes the test restore other sister to full wounds).


I see two separate models on 1 MC so both shooting attacks but must be at same target.
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by nXken »

That FAQ is something I can adhere to.

Thanks for posting it.
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by tomrobo23 »

yeah that's how i think it works. I made the topic so that i could put out an idea to hopefully eliminate one version of the rules interpretation.
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by godswearhats »

I wrote that rule, so you're welcome :-D

Sorry, couldn't help it - need a little bit of glory today.
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by nXken »

*take spotlight and point it at gwh*
Someone plug it in please...
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Billthesurly »

Glory to Godswearhats! Praise him with great praise!

He has very neatly encapsulated what I have been frantically ranting and screaming.... ur, ummm calmly and reasonably arguing how the sisters should be played since 8th ed came out. :paranoid:
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by godswearhats »

:-)
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Jezandu »

So can Gwindalor be killed whilst the Sisters are on him?
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Billthesurly »

Jezandu wrote:So can Gwindalor be killed whilst the Sisters are on him?
No. Unlike the Dragon, Gwindalor is not a ridden monster. As per the monsterous beast/cavalry rules, he is their mount. They can be killed off of him at which time he disappears just like any Great Eagle with a killed rider would. (This is why they get his wounds and toughness. He is factored into their stat line when they ride him. When they die he dies with them.)

Note that the rule says: "Should their mount be slain, the sisters automatically form a unit." This only applies to Ceithin Har and not Gwindalor because only the Dragon could be killed out from under them but "monsterous cavalry" Gwindalor doesn't work that way.
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Jezandu »

Thank you. That was the quote I was puzzled about in our rulebook and couldn't see how it applied with rules above.
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Aezeal »

1. OK how do cannon shots work against them on eagle and on dragon.

I just read this 4chan strat thingie for WE:
A single cannonball won't kill them - and certainly it won't kill Gwindalor, since, according to MC rules, it can't be targeted (yes, this means that the rule that lets the mount regain wounds is useless for G). When N&A are hit, you have to randomize, according to their rules. Then you wound, then the sister that was hit probably dies; then she pops back to full life if the other hasn't been killed by the end of the shooting phase. In melee, you have to allocate attacks, as you would do with two normal characters. N&A can indeed take risks that would be suicidal for other wood elven characters. Quite worthy of the points you pay to field them.
is that right? Gwin not targeted, randomize between the two sisters 1-3 the one, 4+ the other, 1 sister hit, dies on 2+, 2+ BUT thenAUTOMATICALLY lives again (unless the other is also killed in the same phase)

And on Ceitin-Har just randomize 1-4 dragon, 5 one sister, 6 other sister? And only Ceitin har can easiliy die?

2. Also earlier in this topic it's said that in the masters FAQ the sisters on Gwin are 4T, 3W EACH? I'm pretty sure I read about (another?) FAQ where they are 1x 3W, T4 TOTAL.

Are there different rules for this for swedish and ETC (any other important tourney rules?) or are they the same now (and how are they).
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Mollesvinet »

I wouldn't take 4chan very seriously, it's a bit like Wikipedia if I am not mistaken. Same for all the faqs, those are only to make the rules clear for a given event.

Personally I just don't use the sisters on the eagle, as the rules are unplayable. For the dragon though, all parts of a multiple part model is hit by templates. So that is bad news for the sisters when it comes to cannonballs (same for a glade lord on a dragon btw). I suppose you could argue it should work the same way for shooting templates at the eagle. I don't have my rulebook here though, so can't go into details.
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Aezeal »

Mollesvinet wrote:I wouldn't take 4chan very seriously, it's a bit like Wikipedia if I am not mistaken. Same for all the faqs, those are only to make the rules clear for a given event.

Personally I just don't use the sisters on the eagle, as the rules are unplayable. For the dragon though, all parts of a multiple part model is hit by templates. So that is bad news for the sisters when it comes to cannonballs (same for a glade lord on a dragon btw). I suppose you could argue it should work the same way for shooting templates at the eagle. I don't have my rulebook here though, so can't go into details.
I didn't believe 4chan since I thought it was different but I couldn't find it in the BRB yesterday. I actually skipped the template part since.. cannon ball isn't a template... I see now that its actually mentioned in there anyway. Thus cannons stay annoying.

My question about the differnt comps and rules about the sisters on eagle remain.. anyone know the answer?
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Mollesvinet »

Sorry, should have added rulebook reference but was at work. From page 105 of the BRB under the ridden monsters section:
BRB wrote:Templates
If you use a weapon or spell that uses a template against a monster mount, both the riders and the mount are automatically hit if the monster's base is touched by the template (note that this includes bouncing cannonballs!).
Cannonballs use two-dimensional templates.
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Aezeal »

Mollesvinet wrote:Sorry, should have added rulebook reference but was at work. From page 105 of the BRB under the ridden monsters section:
BRB wrote:Templates
If you use a weapon or spell that uses a template against a monster mount, both the riders and the mount are automatically hit if the monster's base is touched by the template (note that this includes bouncing cannonballs!).
Cannonballs use two-dimensional templates.
The one known as "a line"?
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Mollesvinet »

That would be the one :D
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Aezeal »

Mollesvinet wrote:That would be the one :D
so a cube has 3 dimensions

a square has 2 dimensions

a line has how many dimensions?
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Mollesvinet »

Mollesvinet wrote:That would be the one :D

The answer was there, one! Sorry, long day.
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Aezeal »

:nod:
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

I like those comp rules, good work hats! :thumbsup:
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by tomrobo23 »

Do you guys think it might be worth creating our own FAQ since there certainly won't be one forthcoming from GW? Druchii.net does a similar thing i think. I mean the current one is a joke.
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Andrew »

Yea, that masters FAQ still doesn't work, because when on Gwindalor they are a single model for all rules purpose that has 3 wounds total, not 6, and you absolutely cannot kill riders off the mount or mount from under the riders. Unless, of course, you just make up whatever silly rules you want! :sexy: :thumbsup:

At any rate, for the OP:

"Q: Can a monster and its rider both shoot in the same shooting
phase? (p105)
A: Yes. Additionally, if there are multiple riders they can
each shoots"

BRB FAQ p.11

Which works for Ceithin-Har, but again, still not Gwindalor. Basically, as you already noted, playing with the eagle is the very worst of either possible choice.
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by Billthesurly »

Andrew wrote:Yea, that masters FAQ still doesn't work, because when on Gwindalor they are a single model for all rules purpose that has 3 wounds total, not 6, and you absolutely cannot kill riders off the mount or mount from under the riders. Unless, of course, you just make up whatever silly rules you want! :sexy: :thumbsup:

At any rate, for the OP:

"Q: Can a monster and its rider both shoot in the same shooting
phase? (p105)
A: Yes. Additionally, if there are multiple riders they can
each shoots"

BRB FAQ p.11

Which works for Ceithin-Har, but again, still not Gwindalor. Basically, as you already noted, playing with the eagle is the very worst of either possible choice.
I reject your reality and substitute my own. (and blow metaphorical raspberries to boot) :p
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Re: The Sisters of Twilight question. Now with a twist.

Post by godswearhats »

How I play it:

If a cannon shoots the sisters, they are both hit, just like with ridden monsters.

Both can shoot, as they each have a shooting attack. Obviously they have to shoot at the same target (which is rarely what you want to do).

Bear in mind there are no written rules that adequately cover the Sisters on Gwindalor so we have to do some level of practical extrapolation.

T4, W3. No look out sir from nearby monstrous cav (they are technically not a lone character). They are very hard to kill, but easily defeated by combat res.

I've not had anyone complain about them being unbalanced when using these rules, even in tournaments.
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