ASL/ASF

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Jossebuschman
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ASL/ASF

Post by Jossebuschman »

Hi guys,

There is one little thing that is not entirely clear to me about the ASF/ASL rules.

If a model has both the ASL and ASF special rules, let's say wildwood rangers, can they then get either rule from an external source? I'm thinking about Birona's timewarp or being in base contact with a phoenix.

Under ASL (BRB 66):
'If a model has both this rule and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's initiative.'

So it seems that even though the rule no longer applies, the model does not lose the special rules entirely and since you can never have multiples of the same special rule (FAQ, 2 ref page66), it stands to reason that there is no way to get those rules back.

So a unit of wildwood rangers fighting a frostphoenix would not suffer from the frostaura (or whatever it's called).
Of course the other side of the coin is that Timewarp does not work either (except for the movement and attacks of course :P).

So what do you guys think, am I missing something? Or would you interpret page 66 as actually losing the special rules as opposed to it just not working?
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Re: ASL/ASF

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Opinion very divided on this.

Last tournament I played ruled it one way, the one before, other way.

The biggest issue IMHO is whether ASF gets to re-roll vs ASF + ASL. Personally, I feel it should and I suspect I'm in the majority but as said, plenty of opinion the other way too.
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Re: ASL/ASF

Post by Jossebuschman »

Thanks for your reply.
I don't think this is the same issue though. The 'do I get to reroll' issue seems pretty clearcut to me. If you have asf and asl, they are canceled out and neither "apply", so everything under that header is ignored and the model no longer has the ability (not 'special rule').

The issue here is, does the model actually lose the special rules for asf and asl and is therefore able to get them back somehow, or do they just not work anymore, in which case multiples of the same special rule have no further effect.
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Re: ASL/ASF

Post by Slobber »

I think cancel is different from removes, so I'd have to go with you can't give asf twice and have asf with asl.
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Re: ASL/ASF

Post by hutobega »

Since it can be played two ways people will always argue...my friends play it as (the rules cancel each other out) but, applying a new rule (via spell or some outside source) you're good to go. AKA ASL/ASF = normal cast spell of ASF on unit... unit now has ASF. as far as a unit with ASF vs a unit with ASF/ASL then yes you would get the re rolls on the ASF unit because the other unit doesn't have the ability to ASF anymore thus losing their rerolls as well...(luckily our units has the same or higher initiative) so fat chance they get a reroll anyways
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Re: ASL/ASF

Post by NonnoSte »

I think it should be interpreted that they cancel each other's EFFECTS, but they remain both on the model.
Thus they can't be re-gained, since the model never lost them.

As an example, Frost Phoenix affecting Greatswords doesn't make any difference to them, then it shouldn't do anything to Rangers either.
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Re: ASL/ASF

Post by Phil Rossiter »

I agree with the guys, the wording on pg 66 suggests that while the effects of ASF and ASL don't apply, the model retains the rules. Which of course prevents any subsequent adding of ASF or ASL from making a difference.
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Re: ASL/ASF

Post by hutobega »

It does make it simpler to do it that way honestly. If both parties agree to the other way it can be kind of fun sometimes to get ASF back on my wild wood rangers bwahahaha. But yeah probably the no stack still has rules just no effects make the most sense now that I think about it.
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Re: ASL/ASF

Post by Stygian »

Rather than start a new topic on similar discussion I cast necromancy.. hope no one minds too much.

Reading through ETC faqs I've come across some funky stuff and one of them is:
7.15. Q: Can Always Strike First models re-roll to hit against units with both ASF and Always Strike Last? Does a single ASL cancel any amount of ASF and vice versa?
A: Yes. Yes.
For those who use ETC is this saying that a single GW hero inside any of our ASF units would remove the benefits? Is this a commonly accepted interpretation?
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Re: ASL/ASF

Post by Slobber »

You'll note that the FAQ is about models not units so the one great weapon helro/lord wouldn't have ASF but the EG or whatever would still have it.
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Re: ASL/ASF

Post by Stygian »

Ah gotcha, its actually addressing people trying to stack multiple instances of ASF/ASL (which wouldn't be possible anyway).
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Re: ASL/ASF

Post by ~ Wardancer ~ »

Phil Rossiter wrote:Opinion very divided on this.

Last tournament I played ruled it one way, the one before, other way.

The biggest issue IMHO is whether ASF gets to re-roll vs ASF + ASL. Personally, I feel it should and I suspect I'm in the majority but as said, plenty of opinion the other way too.

We play it as ASF gets the re rolls against units with ASF & ASL
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Re: ASL/ASF

Post by NonnoSte »

The BRB states pretty clearly that thise two rules cancel each other.
Why shouldn't you be allowed re rolls?
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