Enchanted Arrows upgrade quandary

[Noght]

So, talking to a fellow Wood Elf player and apparently there is some chatter regarding the RAW rules regarding our Enchanted Arrows.

So because the Arrows = Enchanted Items, and according to the BRB (pg 172) magic items are unique, ergo you are not allowed to duplicate a specific Arrow upgrade, I.E. No more than a single unit with Hagthane Arrows.

I said any unit can take any listed upgrade in its profile regardless as AB > BRB, but he's looking for a bit more support to prevent some Rules Lawyer ruining our book.

Thoughts?

[Luminith]

Well it says they are enchanted items, but do not stop the model from taking another enchanted item. That right there proves it's an exception to the normal restrictions of enchanted items. You most definitely can take the same arrows for different units.

Also, if it weren't allowed to be duplicated, then technically only one model would be allowed to take it. But that's not the case, is it?

[Noght]

Bump. I need more just in case. Where's Shand when you need him!

[Fitz]

Am I mistaken in thinking that each army can only include one instance of each arrow type?

Logic:

P132 WE book : They are enchanted items.
P177 BRB: Enchanted items are a kind of Magic Item
P172 BRB : Magic Items are unique and you can only take one of each per army.

Conclusion:

You can only take one unit or character with each arrow type?

[viggo3000]

The deamons has the same rule problem. All the bloodletters sword are magic items.
RAW you could not buy arrows on the GG at all. Only on single characters.

[Malkrit]

The way it works is that because the upgrade is given in the unit entry, the only one per army thing doesn't apply.

One instance of this would be the ability for warlock engineers to purchase warpstone armor eventhough that's also a magic item. It's stated in their unit entry and as such doesn't count towards the maximum amount of points in magic items or the maximum of such item in your army.

Edit: Could a mod move this to the Pool of Enlightment and merge it with the already existing thread there?

[Knight Errant]

I didn't see this posted anywhere else - to mods if it's somewhere I apologize...

Since the arrows are enchanted items is only one unit per army allowed to choose the upgrade to comply with the BRB rule of no duplication of (optional) magic items?

[Siege]

The army book specifically states in the second line describing the arrows: "These are enchanted items, but do not prohibit a model from having a second enchanted item."

I know that doesn't answer your question, but this might: The BRB states that no more than one of each enchanted item FROM THAT ENCHANTED ITEM TABLE may be present in each army. Our army book's magic item section adds additional items to that pool. It's worth pointing out that our army book never mentions restricting our arrow selection in this way - they are listed in an entirely different section, as well.

Also, notice that each model in a unit is allowed to carry them. The moment you purchase them for a unit of 10 Glade Guard, it counts as having purchased 10 individual enchanted items, one carried by each model in the unit, and this is allowed...and in fact, required, if you are purchasing the upgrade for the unit. By your logic, only one Glade Guard model could carry a single set of enchanted arrows in the entire army.

Based on all of that, I would find it hard to argue that only one unit (or model, in fact) could be equipped with Hagbane Arrows (or any other type). It seems logical that we may purchase any number of enchanted arrows, including as many duplicates as we like for as many units as we like.

[Luminith]

IMO it's silly that they added the enchanted item tag to the arrows. It's clearly the same as other armories from other army books.

Feel free to take whichever arrows for whichever units allow them. There's no restriction

[Knight Errant]

Also, notice that each model in a unit is allowed to carry them. The moment you purchase them for a unit of 10 Glade Guard, it counts as having purchased 10 individual enchanted items, one carried by each model in the unit, and this is allowed...and in fact, required, if you are purchasing the upgrade for the unit. By your logic, only one Glade Guard model could carry a single set of enchanted arrows in the entire army.

Except that the army book specifically states that the entire unit can take the arrows - therefore no contradiction as it is a specific RAW change to the BRB restriction.

I want it to be true, but not sure I'm convinced yet.

[arthain]

Well it says they are enchanted items, but do not stop the model from taking another enchanted item. That right there proves it's an exception to the normal restrictions of enchanted items. You most definitely can take the same arrows for different units.

So... your argument is that, because the item specifically allows you to break 1 rule regarding magic items ("Balance of Power") that allows you to break any others ("Unique")?

I'd say it points to the opposite actually: Book clearly allows you to bypass Balance of Power. If they'd wanted to bypass Unique, too, they could've made a reference...

[Lassoto]

As many Warlock Engineers as you want may take Warlock-Augmented Weapons. Warlock Engineers are characters and have Warlock-Augmented Weapons as a choice in their beastiary. And Warlock-Augmented Weapons are listed under Magical Weapons. That is a precedent.

[arthain]

As many Warlock Engineers as you want may take Warlock-Augmented Weapons. Warlock Engineers are characters and have Warlock-Augmented Weapons as a choice in their beastiary. And Warlock-Augmented Weapons are listed under Magical Weapons. That is a precedent.

But they have an specific exception:
GW Errata & FAQ:
Page 107 – Warlock-Augmented Weapon.
Add “Any number of Warlock Engineers in an army may take
this item, but none may take it more than once.”

It is similar, but our counterpart lacks that enlightening FAQ. It's actually an Errata so it's less in favor of repeating Magic Arrows. While we wait for it to be released we should sort it out...

The deamons has the same rule problem. All the bloodletters sword are magic items.
RAW you could not buy arrows on the GG at all. Only on single characters.

Daemons are different, because their equipment is non-optional:

Q: Can you take more than one Vermin Lord in an army? If you can,
will they both have a Doom Glaive magic weapon? (p40)
A: Yes to both questions. Whilst you can only opt to take each
magic item once, where it is a standard piece of equipment it
can be duplicated.

[Luminith]

Well it says they are enchanted items, but do not stop the model from taking another enchanted item. That right there proves it's an exception to the normal restrictions of enchanted items. You most definitely can take the same arrows for different units.

So... your argument is that, because the item specifically allows you to break 1 rule regarding magic items ("Balance of Power") that allows you to break any others ("Unique")?

I'd say it points to the opposite actually: Book clearly allows you to bypass Balance of Power. If they'd wanted to bypass Unique, too, they could've made a reference...

Ugh, I regretted typing this as soon as I wrote it. I was trying to say that this exception alludes to the fact that enchanted arrows don't fall in the same category as the magic items listed in the rulebook

So since there's no clear answer, let's just look at the rules we're given. What does the BRB say about magic items? pg172 (in the little one) "Magic items are considered to be unique - you can only have one of each in your army unless otherwise stated in the magic item's rules.". Ok, fair enough. So what does the magic items rules say? pg37 of the wood elf army book (and I'll only post the relevant part, so I don't leak to much of the book) "Some models in the wood elf army have the option to purchase enchanted arrows."
Ok so we know that some models can purchase one of the 6 magical arrows from our book. So who is that? Well, certain characters can, as well as some of our units. Wait a sec. It says here, for glade guard "The entire unit may take one of the following types of enchanted arrows:". But that can't be. No magic item can be duplicated, right? Well this is a mystery, because the BRB says that it has to be stated in the items rules if you're allowed more than one, but instead it's stated in the army selection part of the book.

So here's some points we can probably agree on:
1)The BRB says magic items may not be duplicated.
2)The Wood elf army book allows a whole unit to take the same enchanted arrows. That means every model has those arrows, and thus, the item is duplicated.
3)The army book's rules trumps the BRB's rules.

So we can pretty safely conclude that the same enchanted arrows are safe to be taken by more than one unit, and or character.

I'd also like to point out that if a character chooses to take enchanted arrows, it doesn't come out of his point allotment for magic items. So you might also come to the conclusion that they wouldn't follow the same restrictions as those magic items. But that's only if you want to have fun and play the game the way it was meant to be played.

[Zimmonda]

I cant believe people are actually arguing this

[arthain]

Ugh, I regretted typing this as soon as I wrote it. I was trying to say that this exception alludes to the fact that enchanted arrows don't fall in the same category as the magic items listed in the rulebook

BRBp172 Balance of Power:
Magic Items are divided into 6 categories: Magic Weapons, Magic Armour, Enchanted Items, Arcane Items, Magic Standards and Talismans. Each category covers a particular kind of item and...

DC book:
"Daemonic Gifts follow the rules for Magic Items (specifically, Enchanted Items, unless stated otherwise"
Daemonic Gifts have a wording and mechanism very similar to Enchanted Arrows. Would you say they are not Magic Items? And for example they can't be destroyed with Unforging?

This might indicate that Echanted Items are indeed a type of Magic Item. Chaos Gifts from WoC also hint at this.

So here's some points we can probably agree on:
1)The BRB says magic items may not be duplicated.
2)The Wood elf army book allows a whole unit to take the same enchanted arrows. That means every model has those arrows, and thus, the item is duplicated.
3)The army book's rules trumps the BRB's rules.

The option for the enchanted item is 'The entire unit may choose one...' etc etc. So there is no individual picking despite the book pricing up on a per model basis. So you pick one from a list for the entire unit.

Multiple units have permission to take magic banners, but that doesn't allow them to take the same banner. I realize the wording is new and wonky, and so I see the reason this is an issue, but the rules seem clear enough.

In any case, even if you'd arge for duplication, you're only allowed (in fact, forced) to intra-unit duplicity. Nowhere it specifically allows for inter-units duplicity, and that's where the leap is taken

I'd also like to point out that if a character chooses to take enchanted arrows, it doesn't come out of his point allotment for magic items. So you might also come to the conclusion that they wouldn't follow the same restrictions as those magic items. But that's only if you want to have fun and play the game the way it was meant to be played.

This is not really a point. Several magic items don't come from magic items allotment, including Daemonic Gifts, some Chaos Gifts, and Warlock Enhanced Weapons

______________________________________________________

Disclaimer: Of course this is very FAQ-worthy or even Errata. The intention is highly unclear, and could go both ways. But until GW makes a move, we only have the rules that we have, and arguing on what should be, intent, or probably future ammendments by GW is fruitless at the moment.

[Luminith]

I cant believe people are actually arguing this

Ya I'm gonna agree and back out of this before it gets stupider.

At first I thought it might have been a genuine rules question, but seeing as the only one arguing against it made his account yesterday, I think we're being trolled

[Beithir Seun]

Disclaimer: Of course this is very FAQ-worthy or even Errata. The intention is highly unclear, and could go both ways. But until GW makes a move, we only have the rules that we have, and arguing on what should be, intent, or probably future ammendments by GW is fruitless at the moment.

I don't believe the intention is "highly unclear" - I think the intention is very clear; that enchanted arrows can be taken by multiple units. What is unclear is how the RAI clash with RAW. Nobody except Mat Ward knows what he intended, whereas the rules as written are there in black and white. That said, the rule as written may also *not* be what was intended, and may therefore be wrong...

I firmly believe that, RAI, multiple units can take the same types of arrows. RAW, however, only state that the arrows don't prevent models taking other enchanted items - they don't specifically allow models to take the *same* enchanted item multiple times within an army. In that case, the rules revert to the BRB, which states that the same item cannot be taken more than once. Needless to say, I can see where the argument is coming from

Ultimately, until we can decide a clear answer, it will have to be decided on a case by case basis. Not everyone interprets the rules the same way clearly, and not everyone even reads the rules as written the same way Until we get a definitive answer, I think each argument is just as valid as the other.

[Kaintxu]

As many Warlock Engineers as you want may take Warlock-Augmented Weapons. Warlock Engineers are characters and have Warlock-Augmented Weapons as a choice in their beastiary. And Warlock-Augmented Weapons are listed under Magical Weapons. That is a precedent.

But they have an specific exception:
GW Errata & FAQ:
Page 107 – Warlock-Augmented Weapon.
Add “Any number of Warlock Engineers in an army may take
this item, but none may take it more than once.”

It is similar, but our counterpart lacks that enlightening FAQ. It's actually an Errata so it's less in favor of repeating Magic Arrows. While we wait for it to be released we should sort it out...

The deamons has the same rule problem. All the bloodletters sword are magic items.
RAW you could not buy arrows on the GG at all. Only on single characters.

Daemons are different, because their equipment is non-optional:

Q: Can you take more than one Vermin Lord in an army? If you can,
will they both have a Doom Glaive magic weapon? (p40)
A: Yes to both questions. Whilst you can only opt to take each
magic item once, where it is a standard piece of equipment it
can be duplicated.

Well that's nice to your convenience, saying the FAQ from shaven does. It apply to we but the one for the vermin lord applies to daemon?

[jer732]

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... c8537af86b

See above link for a more complete discussion of the relevant facts.

[arthain]

Well that's nice to your convenience, saying the FAQ from shaven does. It apply to we but the one for the vermin lord applies to daemon?

One is an Errata (rule change), the other is a FAQ (supposedly not a rule change, just a explanation of how rules work, though in fact some times it is a rule change)

The Errata corrects any mistakes in the book. The Frequently Asked Questions (or ‘FAQ’) section answers commonly asked questions about the rules.

Also, one is very specifically worded (specific item, specific model), the other is generally worded (Whilst you can only opt to take each magic item once, where it is a standard piece of equipment it can be duplicated)

[LincolnTidwell]

Last night we had a Tournament organizer point out that the WE book describes these as being enchanted items. Although it does say they can be used with additional enchanted items in their description, I don't see where it says they can duplicated in your army. This sounds crazy I know... Please weigh in and give me your thoughts.

[TheSupremePatriarch]

I've seen a forum running on warhammer.org.uk where a lot of people are convinced that as arrow upgrades are classified as enchanted items, until there's an errata then only one unit can be upgraded with any single type of arrow. So only one unit in the army can take Hagbane, only one can take Arcane Bodkins etc.

Personally, the way I see it is that it isn't limited. It's an upgrade for any unit and the number isn't capped. The main counter argument is that it's an enchanted item, therefore only one per army.

Just wondering what you guys think?? The link for the forum:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 3&t=122940

[Bowbastard]

I think if that were the case you wouldn't get more than a single arrow period with one shot on a single modle. Lol but it's not the whole unit can have them and shoot them every turn. That's my argument anyway. Silly question but someone had to ask cause there's always gonna be some moron who wants to claim one unit per army per arrow type can have them. Maybe it needs to be faq'ed I don't know.

Hope you have a great week with the new book. I've lost with them in the only game I've played so far but it was tons of fun.

[Hflord]

I see the argument....I just don't buy it. Sounds like some beardy folk are attempting to squash our awesomeness. But there is nothing to state that they can be repeated in an army - hence me seeing the argument....