MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

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NonnoSte
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MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by NonnoSte »

Hi everyone,
While the End of Times: Glottkin Campaign is going on in our local club, me and a friend of mine (actually, he’s working for me as chef in my cafè, but we share the WH hobby and we have occasional games sometimes) decided to collect a new army together and he’s running it for a while, since he got bored by Lizards.
We had a game to test the army (which I’m not satisfied with, but I’ll express my opinion later) and I played with my MSU army.

The Ogre Kingdom army we put together is the following:

Tyrant, Heavy Armour, Sword of Antiheroes, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation, The Other Trickster Shard.
Slaughtermaster, (Great Maw) Great Weapon, Armour of Silvered Steel, Dawnstone, Dispel Scroll.
Bruiser BSB, Great Weapon, Armour of Destiny.

8 Ogre Bulls, full command, look out gnoblar, ironfists
7 Ironguts, full command, look out gnoblar, Dragonhide Banner
4 Leadbelchers, musician
4 Meneaters, musicican, paired Ogre pistols, Poison, Sniper
2 x 2 Mournfang Cavalry, heavy armor, ironfists
2 x 1 Sabretusk
Ironblaster

Not the strongest list possible, but with strong characters and complete with all the usual toys and tricks (except the Hell Heart, which both of us considered too powerful and a bit over the friendliness of our occasional games).
It’s fast, it’s hard hitting, it even has a good amount of shooting and Ogres are always not easy to take down. Still, I think to have anything needed to deal with each threat he can pose.

Mind that he’s completely new to the army and he hasn’t played many games under 8th edition so far (he came back after several years for working seasons abroad just in September and he decided to get back in the hobby, since he’s not going to leave again anytime soon).

But that’s enough talk, let’s get in to the match:

Deployment
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The rightmost forest is my Venom Thicket and we played the other one, as well as the river with no random effects. It just provided cover and forced DT for cavalries and chariots, while the River was considered DT for anyone and prevented the march through it.
The ruins on the right-bottom corner were a fairly big impassable structure which blocked LoS.

He started to spread his shooting and his Cats, being quite shy with his cannon, then placed a unit of Mournfang Cavalry on both side (I would have run them in tandem, to crush one of my side, then come up through my backline) and his two infatry blocks central.
In the meanwhile, I responded with an ItP left flanka and the two GG units around the ruins, to cover the corridor behind the building. This left my Infantry units central as well, since I wanted to engage at least one of his blocks in combat. The Sisters hid behind my lines with the BSB and the Highweaver used the shelter provided by the ruins, while the Metalweaver went in a unit of GG to deal with Mournfangs (on the left flank WR could take on the others).

Scouts and Vanguard
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I placed Scouts in both forests to stack enough modifiers so he couldn’t possibly harm them, nor anything behind them with shooting. Waywatchers went to put more ranged pressure on the right flank, where he had less room to come forward.
With Vanguard I moved Sisters even more backwards and Wild Riders crossed the river to be free to go after whatever presented itself on their flank.

Since we had the same drops and he started to deploy first, he also had the +1 to start and the first turn went to Ogres.

Ogre Turn 1
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Everything came down menacingly fast. Ogres started bragging about their tonnage (a spell gave +1T to all the central units), but only the cannon seemed to be able to do real damage from range and some Rangers fell dead, hit by a cannon ball from nowhere.

Asrai Turn 1
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Wild Riders unleashed the rage of Kurnous on the rusty Ogre machine, reducing it to a piece of junk. In the meanwhile, Elves showed their ranged superiority, killing the two Cats and the mammoth ogrin cavalry. However the Metalweaver channelled too much power to melt the iron on those beasts and the spell backlashed, wounding her.

Ogre Turn 2
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Enraged, the gigantic warriors sprinted to assault the elven lines, but they miscalculated the distance, failing to reach teir foes. Their grimy mage then spread some slimy stuff on him and his comrades to protect themselves (Regen on the Irongut unit), while their shooters actually hit something. Other two Rangers fell and Meneaters, in particular, showed their aim on the wounded Weaver, weakening her even more.

Asrai turn 2
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Elves set up ambushes from the hills and in their beloved forests and their shooting was deadly once again. The Ogre mage was able to stop the power of the elven Weavers, but the Sisters of the Thorn managed to cast their curse on the mage himself and his unit.

Ogre turn 3
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With no many options, Ogres charged the units offered and the Metalweaver was forced to appeal to her arcane scroll to contrast the Ogre mage. Nontheless, in the end, a single Wardancer managed to survive and hold the impact of those masses (the 3++ dnce and the Curse of Anraheir reduced the damage of the Gutstar incredibly. He hold on a stubborn, rerollable Ld 9).
However, Leadbelchers had a nasty surprise when the Glade Captain unleashed his Hail of Doom Arrow and the single Ogre who reached the Sisters was finished by their poisonous attacks even before he could swing his sword at them.

Asrai turn 3
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The elven trap sprung and Ogre, surrounded and cursed by the Sisters, withdrew. Nothing mattered the challenge issued by the colossal Standard Bearer: the Highweaver could deflect any blow he dished. In the end his regiment was slaughtered by the merciless Sisters, who chased them to the last warrior.
On the other flank the Warriors of Kurnous could not control their franzy any longer and stormed on the Ogres lost in the woods. However the two commanders intercepted them and the last survivor was sent back in terror for what those Giants did of his companions.

Ogre turn 4
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The two colossuses, exalted by the blood spilled, run towards the Rangers. Then the Mage picked up some smelling chunk of rottne flesh from his satchel and the Ogres became unstoppable.
The impact alone was enough to kill half of the unit and the titanic warriors ignored all the wounds inflicted by the brave elves, proceeding in slaughtering them with no efforts.
The comrades behind them were catch out of guard when the Ogre smashed on them too.

Asrai turn 4
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Sisters, immediatly helped their kin, cursing again the mighty enemy unit and elven spears managed to take down an Ogre and to wound the Slaughtermaster eventually. A lot of Elves died, but the firmness of the troops allowed them to stay steady, keeping on the fight.
Alongside this epic fight, once more, the elven shooting proved his valour, peppering the last Cavalry unit until both riders fell from the saddle.

Ogre turn 5
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The count of the dead raised more and more, until there were no elves standing in combat, but the Ogres were weakened too and almost only the chracters remained. The Slaughtermaster escaped severely wounded too (I think that he healed one or two wounds with magic during the match, but I can’t recall exactly at what stage it happened and after the combat with Eternl Guards he was left with just a single wound).

Asrai turn 5
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The Highweaver sniped the enemy mage from range, but even the last act was left to the elven shooting.
The whole Iron Guts unit was wiped from the board and even the General received a wound.
At this point he conceded, since a sixth turn would have been mostly useless.


In the end, he lost every single model (except The Tyrnt, but in the last turn I would have killed it through magic and shooting almos certainly.
On the other side, I lost:
- Great Eagle
- Wild Riders
- War Dancers
- Wildwood Rangers
- Eternal Guards

of which just the eagle didn't die under the feet of Iron Guts.

Post match thoughts

Not a bad game, but quite one-sided.
I felt in control the whole match and he basically couldn’t do anything to put pressure on my troops.
I think this was due mainly because of my shooting and movement superiority as well as several mistakes on his part, starting from deployment.
I think he spread out his forces too much (the units on the right were simply doomed to death) and, more generally, he never paid attention to counter my moves (ie Mournfangs placed to countercharge WR after they ate the Ironblaster or Ogres to cover the Iron Guts advance).
I’m liking the combination between High Magic and Metal, but I wonder if a Metalsinger couldn’t simply do the same, since most of the times the task of the Metalweaver is to shoot Searing Dooms to armoured units. I think I should try High/Heaven sometimes soon or, eventually, settle on more classic combinations such as High/Shadow or High/Death.

In the end, I think this Ogre army is not very focused on nothing in particular. It’s mediocre at pushing, mediocre at shooting and mediocre at holding, but it doesn’t excel in anything.
I don’t like the two mid-sized infantry units (I think they would be better split in 3 smaller ones or a big one and a couple of min-sized) and I’m not keen on Sniper Meneaters.
I liked (or better, suffered) a lot Swiftstride when I faced them and Stubborn on resiliant models like Ogres is pure golden. But also the abilities to Scout or Vanguard should be taken in account IMO.
The two small units of Mournfangs are interesting, but I think that he should have run them in tandem or at least I’m sure they would have posed a much greater threat to my army that way.
Lastly I would have kept the Leadbelchers to protect the Ironblaster from such things as Wild Riders (they’re just brutal against fast cav with D6 shots each at Str4 and AP).
Another thing I'm attracted to is the Firebelly. I think he's one of the best characters at disposal for the army. Either inside Ironguts to strip regen before they strike or even on his own, flying on an Arabian Carpet (just figure out how stunningly awesome would be that model!).

These are definitely things to work on for me and my friend and I'll have to convince him on most of them, tough this game already showed many flaws. Eventually we’ll get the army stronger (and we’ll learn to play it).

By now, I’m mostly sad we didn’t include a Scraplauncher and some Gnoblars. They look incredibly funny!!

As always, suggestions and comments are welcome.
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Mollesvinet
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Re: MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by Mollesvinet »

Well played game.

Ogres used to be very difficult to handle in the previous book. They have high movement across the board and the mournfang cavalry and ironblaster used to be near unkillable.

A firebelly is nice, fireball is a very flexible spell which excels at blasting off MSU elves!

I agree that he should have tried to get your wild riders with leadbelchers. Those things don't hit well, so shooting at skirmishers in a forest will never work anyway. I am also not sure that sniper is the way to go for maneaters, they don't exactly need more penalties to hit. As you mentioned, scouting or swiftstride would have the potential to tie up important units while the rest of the ogres arrive!

If shooting the cannon at an all infantry army, I would probably aim for important characters for the off-chance that they roll 1 as look-out-sir.

Out of curiosity, where is your café in Italy?
NonnoSte
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Re: MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by NonnoSte »

I live and work in a small town near Turin (actually there's just a road signe between Turin nd my town) in the north-west.

Have you been in Italy too?
Mollesvinet wrote: If shooting the cannon at an all infantry army, I would probably aim for important characters for the off-chance that they roll 1 as look-out-sir.
I think there's an issue about range with the Ironblaster.
I don't have the codex at hand (and I can't recall just by memory), but I think it has just a range of 48".

I would definitely use Stubborn + Swiftstride/Vanguard/Scout on Meneaters.
Even tough I'd go for Scout+Poison if I was up to use them as shooters. (Imagine HBT scouts with Str5, T4 and 3W each)
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Re: MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi NonnoSte,

Great to see you reporting again and with MSU elves too! It was a very interesting game and I have only browsed it quickly so far but it is already on the list to read and comment (hopefully soon!). I even sent the link to my friend who plays Ogres although he also embarked on MSU journey so the army your opponent had was different to what he plays with at the moment.

I was very impressed by the fact you destroyed big regiments as they are tough to kill for sure. It will be a pleasure to look into more details so I really hope I can add some feedback soon.

Cheers!
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Aezeal
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Re: MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by Aezeal »

Idea: maybe let him take that OP hellheart item when you bring the OP woodelves. (I've got no idea what the item does.. but he could definately use it).
NonnoSte
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Re: MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by NonnoSte »

@Swordmaster:
I always liked a more MSU approach with Ogres (from when I faced them) and I think thy're good at it exactly because they're tougher then other armies even in samll units.
If your friend is writing a blog or just even some reports, I'd love to read them.

In my match I had the fortune to deal with the big blocks in the way I preferred, so it wasn't that difficult to whittle them down (especially if you consider they don't have great armour saves if you factor that almost anything in WE army has AP).

What's more, they have quite a bad Ld and no ranks to speak of.
That multicharge with Rangers, Eternal Guards and Sisters really produced a ton of CR.

@Aezeal:
The Hellheart is an Arcane Item which can be popped once per game in the opponent magic phase. When you use it, every enemy mage in range of 5xD6" suffers a miscast.
It can cripple entire armies out of nowhere and usually it shuts down a magic phase right away.
Sure, you have to run a mage in the thick of the battle, but Ogre mages can stand it almost as WoC ones.

I've seen it used on kamikaze L1 Butchers/Firebellies, but also on Slaughtermasters tooled up for battle (Hellheart + Armor of Destiny are 100 pts and make him tougher than a monster: 5W at T5, immune to poison, 4+/4++ and probaly sitting in a decent unit of Iron Guts)
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Re: MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi NonnoSte,

Here are the links to my friend's blogs. First one is to Ogre Stronghold and is about his Ogres army alone (obviously :)):

http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/ind ... pic=5193.0

But the second one is on Ulthuan and features the games from his journey with Tomb Kings and some games with HE too (his 3 armies).

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=38272

He is very prolific battle reporter but posted his games on armies specific forums and he didn't get the appreciation he deserves. However, he has just started posting his games on warhammer.org.uk and wargamerau so I hope many more players will now enjoy his great games!

Cheers!
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Re: MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by Mollesvinet »

NonnoSte wrote:I live and work in a small town near Turin (actually there's just a road signe between Turin nd my town) in the north-west.

Have you been in Italy too?
Yeah, I used to go there on holidays with my parents quite a lot when I was a kid. My dad is really into Italian sport bikes and Ferraris, and both of them like Italian food. They still often go to northern Italy, so if they get near Turin I will make them look up your place :P Who knows, I might even join them!
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Re: MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by razorfate »

Hi. Thank you for the batrep. It was much fun to read.
I am new to warhammer fantasy, so can be wrong on this, but can the vanguard moving unit charge at the first turn?
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Mollesvinet
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Re: MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by Mollesvinet »

razorfate wrote:Hi. Thank you for the batrep. It was much fun to read.
I am new to warhammer fantasy, so can be wrong on this, but can the vanguard moving unit charge at the first turn?
Hi razorfate,

you are correct that vanguarding units sometimes cannot charge in the first turn, but this only applies if that player gets the first turn. In this case, the ogres went first so the charge was indeed legit.

"Units that have made a Vanguard move cannot declare a charge in the first turn if their army goes first." BRB pa 79
NonnoSte
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Re: MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by NonnoSte »

Hi razorfate,
thanks to you for reading and asking!

Mollesvinet got it right, obviously.

The Vanguard move had the exact purpose to be able to charge the cannon, in case my opponent won first turn and decided to climb the hill with it. I had a bit of luck and it paid off.
If I had to go first, probably I wouldn't have moved them at all.

Actually, my whole plan was to be more defensive if I had to go first, trying to gain as many turns as possible to shoot/magic his units before engaging them in combat.
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Re: MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by razorfate »

Thanks for the replies, guys. Apparently there is so much to learn :)
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Re: MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by Ease »

Did you not lose any Wild Riders when you made that charge over the hill? Doesn't the Dangerous Terrain affect cavalry charging/marching over hills?
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Re: MSU Wood Elves against Ogre

Post by Aezeal »

No it doesn't unless its a special kind of hill, regular hills do not give DT as far as I know.
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