8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

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8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

Postby Findecano » 22 Jul 2015, 11:07

The scenario is death and glory, my opponent is a TK player, likes archers, no catapult, probably a casket, at least one Sphinx and at least one unit of 6+ necro Knights.

List 1; 'Old Faithful

Spell Weaver; L4, lore of beasts
Glade Captain BSB, additional hand weapon, hail of doom arrow (joins EG)
Waystalker; Bow of Loren

24 EG; full command, standard of discipline
10 GG; hagbane, banner & musician
10 GG; hagbane, banner & musician

8 Scouts; hagbane, banner
20 WWR; full command
6 WRs; full command
6 Wardancers

8 WW
Eagle

List 2; Dragon circus
Glade Lord; Forest Dragon, Asrai spear, enchanted shield, Talisman of Preservation.
Glade Captain BSB; Crown of command (joins WWR)
Spell singer; L2, Lore of beasts

10 GG; Hagbane, banner & musician
10 GG; Hagbane, banner & musician
10 GG; Hagbane, banner & musician

20 WWR; full command
6 WRs; full command
6 Wardancers; Bladesinger

8 WWs
Eagle

I briefly entertained the idea of swapping out the dragon Lord and wardancers in the second list to take Orion, but that is probably a really terrible idea, much as I'd like the King in the Woods to be a viable option.

Questions
Which is the better list here?
Should I make any changes to the better list?
What about Magic lores? Beasts is basically 'what I know' so I'm not sure if there might be better synergies out there with these lists.

Finally, Orion, is he really as bad values as he seems?
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Re: 8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

Postby Hyarion » 22 Jul 2015, 14:06

I like the second list better, but I tend to avoid blocks of troops so having EG and WWR in a list doesn't suit my playstyle so well. I like the Glade Guard over the scouts also.
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Re: 8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

Postby Findecano » 22 Jul 2015, 14:52

I could drop the EG out of the first list and go for the third unit of GG to make up min core requirement. I think the WWRs will be quite good here because whatever they fight they gain the second Attack, effectively making them cut-price swordsmasters.

What do you think about a Treeman when fighting TK? Also is strangle root ever worth bothering with?
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Re: 8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

Postby Hyarion » 22 Jul 2015, 15:07

If he doesn't (or can't) bring a catapult, I like a Treeman a lot more than just taking one blind. Will you be playing with End Times magic? Assuming you take a lv 2, your dispel capabilities may be a bit limited allowing spells to get through. I wouldn't take Strangleroots personally, but I don't have much experience with Treemen in 8th edition.
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Re: 8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

Postby Findecano » 22 Jul 2015, 16:37

No, none of the end times rules are in play, except for the Lord/hero percentage changes that were FAQ'd into the main rule book. In terms of Magic i'm fairly sure he will bring a L4 LHP and probably a casket as well, I can probably bank on the L2 stopping a single spell a turn, which means a casket might be a problem.

Maybe I will give my dragon an outing after all.
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Re: 8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

Postby Phil Rossiter » 22 Jul 2015, 16:54

Whichever, a Dispel Scroll would help. I'd be tempted to put more defense on the BSB. Hagbane is great unless he brings an absolute ton of archers in which case I'd be tempted by Trueflight. Weight of fire should help with the heavy stuff anyway. I'd be a bit careful with the infantry blocks, as the Stomps could hurt. The Wild Riders could be very important so I guess your opponent will try to shoot them early. The dragon looks like a good shout.

I can't see Orion surviving the sheer volume of arrows he'll be taking.
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Re: 8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

Postby Findecano » 22 Jul 2015, 23:57

He usually uses a horde of 40 archers, true flights could be useful if he holes up in a building I guess, maybe I'll take a unit of them.

Revised List 2

Glade Lord; Forest Dragon, Spear, shield, Helm of the Hunt, talisman of preservation, Hail of Doom Arrow

Glade Captain; BSB, additional hand weapon, Armour of Silvered Steel
Spellsinger; L2, dispel scroll

10 Glade Guard; Trueflight, musician, standard bearer; Banner of eternal flame
10 Glade Guard; Hagbane, musician, standard bearer
10 Glade Guard; Hagbane, musician, standard bearer

20 Wild Wood Rangers; full command
6 Wild Riders; full command

8 Way Watchers
Great Eagle

Any comments on the magic lore?
Death feels a little too short ranged,
beasts is possibly not entirely optimal because a lot of the synergies aren't there, I'd basically just be taking it for Wyssans
light seems a bit of a waste since we have high Int and ASF across the board anyway (also feels a bit of a cheap shot at undead if I take it for the increased DD spell attribute),
life might be more useful, although I don't generally like life on a L2
Shadow or heavens might be handy I guess
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Re: 8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

Postby Phil Rossiter » 23 Jul 2015, 11:29

TBH magic isn't going to do that much unless you add another mage. Fire is a good general-purpose choice that will put pressure on his archers.
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Re: 8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

Postby laribold » 04 Aug 2015, 10:55

Heavens is normally a good utility lore, but I'm not sure it's so good vs TKs because the sig spell isn't actually all that helpful (archers don't care about -1 to hit, and none of them really care about -1Ld) and it's much harder to get Comet with just a level 2.

Shadows might work for you here? Miasma is cheap and can reduce the archers BS to 1, meaning 6s to hit and then still be used to lower WS to make their troops hit you on 5s!

Plus whichever of the other spells you roll will be useful (assuming you swap out Steed of Shadows). Withering and Enfeebling are both great spells, Pit and Pendulum are both things to concern his low I Sphinxes and Knights (maybe even the Casket if you can get in range) and Mindrazor is Mindrazor!

But bear in mind that you're lowly level 2 might not actually get any spells cast against a Level 4, so don't bank on it...
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Re: 8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

Postby Spiritus Sanctus » 07 Aug 2015, 15:17

The only Core worth taking with 8th Edition, are Gladeguard. Why bother with any upgrades? 30 points gets you another couple of shots per unit.
Trueflight Arrows all the way, Hagbane aren't really worth bothering with, especially against stuff with average T & not much armour. Hitting on 3's is far better than maybe 5's and hoping for the odd Poisoned hit.
4 or 5 Wildriders useful for killing off Warmachines & small units.
A handfull of Wardancers are of similar use.
A few units of Scouts, again with Trueflight.Again, forget any upgrades, they're there to shoot, not fight.
A handfull of Waywatchers, to wander about his rear & just be complete nuissances.
Chicken? Why not. You need something throw away.
Nasty stuff? A couple of Treemen (As long as you've got models worth fielding, ie not the GW plastic Eldar Knights with the odd branch stuck on them!)
Characters, L4. Against Khemri, Shadows would be tasty.
Add a Level 2 with whatever, a BSB with HoD.
A winning list, but pretty boring to play with & against, as it's just shoot, shoot, shoot, zap, zap & a final stomp if anything's left after 3 turns of shoot/zap.

Very few Special Characters are worth their points.
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Re: 8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

Postby Phil Rossiter » 09 Aug 2015, 12:42

Glade Rider lists can be good but maybe not here. Musician well worth taking on Core archers IMHO, Swift Reform can give you extra shots. Hagbane archers are excellent but yes Trueflight even better if you can deal with high Toughness OK.

In general I wouldn't take Treemen vs TK because of the war machines and they tend to go crazy on Light magic. Depends what he brings though.
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Re: 8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

Postby Findecano » 09 Aug 2015, 20:56

Thanks for the advice, I went for the lore of light in the end, being able to throw a bunch of dice at a high level burning gaze was fun and generated a few kills here and there.

Well the game was interesting, my opponent tried his best to blind side me with his army selection, no sphinx, no necropolis knights, no casket, he turned up with a catapult (a new acquisition), a big block of chariots, horsemen, archers (hierophant bunker) 2 units of skeletons and halberd tomb guard.

I got first turn and poisoned the catapult off the table with my glade guard, flew my dragon lord up the flank towards the chariots and moved my WWRs into a witch fate tor in the middle of the table, the WRs rounded the other flank towards the smaller skeleton block (30).

In the shoot phase I fired the poison arrows at the catapult and removed it and my WWs and true flight unit fired at the hierophants bunker, and my wizard burning gazed a few as well.

Second turn my dragon Lord moved to the flank of the chariots and fired the HoDA at them, taking out two chariots and wounding a third, the WRs charged the 30 man skeleton block, killed 18 of them and crumbled the rest for a single dead WR and overran into the flank of the hierophant's archer unit.

In his turn two the game basically ended, his tomb guard charged the WWRs in the tower and got totally minced, the wild riders took the hierophants scalp and everything started to crumble.

In my turn three my Lord charged the remaining chariots and my WWs & GG pounded away at the Prince's skeleton horde.

He conceded at the end of T3, my casualty pile consisted of 6 WWRs and one WR
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Re: 8th Edition vs Tomb Kings, 2000pts, choice of lists

Postby Phil Rossiter » 10 Aug 2015, 12:59

Ouch!

You applied the boot liberally!

:)
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