1500 points against Ogres

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Swift Guardian
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1500 points against Ogres

Post by Swift Guardian »

Hi fellow Asrai,

next week I'm up against Ogres for a 1500point battle (no EndTimes) and I'm not quite sure what to do O_O ..
the only thing I want to try out is the weaver on unicorn ^^

the rest of my list - and the equipment, magic lore of the weaver - is up to discussion and I'm glad for any advice on it cause it's my first try on ogres :-) :


Spellweaver: Level 4, High, Talisman of Preservation, Earthing Rod or Bow of Loren or another item that might suit him :-P, Unicorn

12 Glade Guard: Swiftshiver Shards
12 Glade Guard: Hagbane Tips

5 Wild Riders
5 Wild Riders
6 Deepwood Scouts: Hagbane Tips

10 Waywatchers
1 Great Eagle
4 Treekin


because I have no warhawk riders, I included 4 tree kin to screen the weaver a little bit until it has gathered enough tokens to run around on its own ..
maybe they'll provide a little little little bit punch in close combat but I'm not counting on that

I know that my opponent only got 4 lead belchers, 1 cannon and 3 ogre scouts (don't know the name in english ) for shooting ..
of course I expect some mournfangs, ogre bulls and iron guts and concerning magic there might be a firebelly paired with a level 4 or 3 mage

I'm thankful for any advise :nod:
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Aezeal »

Swiftshiver? why not full Hagbane vs ogres. Maybe the waywatchers can be better used as hagbane scouts too against this army. Not sure Ogre is the best army to try the highweaver against though.. normally it would be able to clear a unit of weaker infantry I'd guess but ogres are pretty strong for a mage to deal with (but maybe people who have actually tried this have a different view on that).
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Swift Guardian »

Thanks for the quick reply Aezeal :-)

the main point why I took swiftshiver was to get to the 25% minimum core .. I thought I might eventually buff those boys with hand of glory to boost the efficiency - not necessarilly .. but of course I could take 25 glade guard with hagbane instead - two groups of 10 and 15 or split them nearly even ?

the waywatchers can also be replaced by 12 hagbane scouts .. but I'm afraid there is not much against high armour like the mournfangs 2+ AS without them
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Aezeal »

Swift Guardian wrote:Thanks for the quick reply Aezeal :-)

the main point why I took swiftshiver was to get to the 25% minimum core .. I thought I might eventually buff those boys with hand of glory to boost the efficiency - not necessarilly .. but of course I could take 25 glade guard with hagbane instead - two groups of 10 and 15 or split them nearly even ?

the waywatchers can also be replaced by 12 hagbane scouts .. but I'm afraid there is not much against high armour like the mournfangs 2+ AS without them
Just go full hagbane GG for core, how you divide them is hardly relevant, if you have a character in one of those units I'd make that unit 15.
You are probably right about the WW against the mournfang.. not sure if poison en AP (GG) or no AS at all and just S3 (from WW) is better though.
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Mollesvinet »

Definitely WW against mournfang, unless you bring a metal mage!

And remember to be careful, keep your mages at a distance to his characters in case he has the hellheart which forces miscasts onto all mages nearby.
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Swift Guardian »

Mollesvinet wrote:Definitely WW against mournfang, unless you bring a metal mage!

And remember to be careful, keep your mages at a distance to his characters in case he has the hellheart which forces miscasts onto all mages nearby.
I don't think that I will use a metal mage because there are not that many ogre units with high armour but the mournfangs .. so I will keep the watchers ˆˆ
right now my favourite lore to use is high .. any other suggestions on that or the equipment of the unicorn weaver ??
the talisman is out of discussion I guess because without it the weaver would be too easy to kill and the weaver is worth too many points to let it die in the 2nd or 3rd round

Thanks for the hellheart reminder :thumbsup: .. I heard about it but I did not have it in mind while preparing O_o
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Mollesvinet »

you could try out forbidden rod or whatever it is called, the +d6 power dice item. With ward saves, counters and healing your weaver should be fine and it can really overload a magic phase. Plus it is different than the usual scroll :)
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Swift Guardian »

Mollesvinet wrote:you could try out forbidden rod or whatever it is called, the +d6 power dice item. With ward saves, counters and healing your weaver should be fine and it can really overload a magic phase. Plus it is different than the usual scroll :)
sounds like fun ˆˆ

I'm thinking about two options right now :
1) Talisman of preservation, forbidden rod, the other tricksters shard
or
2)Talisman of preservation, ruby ring of ruin (bound fireball spell), power stone or disspell scroll

maybe the protection scroll - don't know the englisch name - out of the BRB which grants a unit a 4++ save against one spell .. I wonder if this would stack with magic resistance to make it even better :-P
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by NonnoSte »

Yes, it does stack.
I like the most the first build. It's also interesting to use it as a support to your combat units.

For some Trolling you can always go with:
Talisman of Preservation, Power Stone, Crown of Command.

Slam her into his biggest unit and tie it down forever, while Power Stone ensures that even in a low magic phase you can get one or two spells through.
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Swift Guardian »

Thanks for all the helpful comments ^^
NonnoSte wrote:Yes, it does stack.
I like the most the first build. It's also interesting to use it as a support to your combat units.

For some Trolling you can always go with:
Talisman of Preservation, Power Stone, Crown of Command.
I might try the trolling weaver in another game .. would be quite a surprise for my opponent :-)


So the tweaked list would be looking like this right now :

Spellweaver: Level 4, High, Talisman of Preservation, forbidden rod, the other tricksters shard, Unicorn

15 Glade Guard: Hagbane Tips
10 Glade Guard: Hagbane Tips

5 Wild Riders
5 Wild Riders
6 Deepwood Scouts: Hagbane Tips
4 Treekin

8 Waywatchers
1 Great Eagle

If you have more tips or tricks against ogres let me know .. there is still plenty of preparation time for thr match :-P
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by rawdogg15 »

Would you consider putting your lord on an eagle instead of a unicorn? It's something I'm trying out in the list I'm currently building and it is a lot of fun. The extra movement and the ability to fly over things increases her ability to avoid lines of sight, but it might make her more squishy in combat (which I intend to avoid at all costs with mine).

A particular downside of this is that it often means you are compelled to fly her away from your GG, meaning you can't Hand of Glory them. I still think it's an interesting option though.
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by NonnoSte »

I don't like Treekin, especially against Ogres, where they are easily outmatched by your opponent's troops.
If you want something able to block an Ogre charge to stop and delay them, consider a couple of units of Wardancers instead.
In a wood they're stubborn, ItP means that fear is not an issue and the 3++ dance can absorb even impact hits.

Wildwood Rangers also perform well against Ogre, since they will always get their bonus attack. Either in a 20 strong unit for ranks or two 10 strong ones as assault teams.
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Swift Guardian »

rawdogg15 wrote:Would you consider putting your lord on an eagle instead of a unicorn? It's something I'm trying out in the list I'm currently building and it is a lot of fun. The extra movement and the ability to fly over things increases her ability to avoid lines of sight, but it might make her more squishy in combat (which I intend to avoid at all costs with mine).

A particular downside of this is that it often means you are compelled to fly her away from your GG, meaning you can't Hand of Glory them. I still think it's an interesting option though.
Using the weaver on an eagle is definitely something I want to try .. we might play 2 games next week .. maybe I'll try the eagle build an compare it to the one on the unicorn
NonnoSte wrote:I don't like Treekin, especially against Ogres, where they are easily outmatched by your opponent's troops.
If you want something able to block an Ogre charge to stop and delay them, consider a couple of units of Wardancers instead.
In a wood they're stubborn, ItP means that fear is not an issue and the 3++ dance can absorb even impact hits.

Wildwood Rangers also perform well against Ogre, since they will always get their bonus attack. Either in a 20 strong unit for ranks or two 10 strong ones as assault teams.
Well, I do need the tree kin to screen the weaver until it has gathered enough counters to run around on its own for safety .. I would try to use warhawk riders instead if only I had the models -.-

I'm afraid rangers and wardancers won't be able to screen the weaver 'cause it's monstrous cavalry and infantry doesn't block the line of sight as far as I know .. please correct me on that one if I'm wrong .. line of sight and blocking it seems a little tricky for my as I'm starting to play again
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by NonnoSte »

Treekin don't block it either. Units can't block Line of SIght unless they're bigger than the unit behind (on the other hand, if you aplly real Line of SIght it could be tricky to determine). The point in monstruous infantry/cavalry is that they stop cannonbals because if the model isn't killed the cannonball can't bounce over.

The safest way to protect the Weaver is always to hide her behind some terrain piece. Even a wall or a fence can help, stopping the cannonball bounce (you can do nothing about perfect hits though).
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Aezeal »

rawdogg15 wrote:Would you consider putting your lord on an eagle instead of a unicorn? It's something I'm trying out in the list I'm currently building and it is a lot of fun. The extra movement and the ability to fly over things increases her ability to avoid lines of sight, but it might make her more squishy in combat (which I intend to avoid at all costs with mine).

A particular downside of this is that it often means you are compelled to fly her away from your GG, meaning you can't Hand of Glory them. I still think it's an interesting option though.
How does it make it that much worse in combat? I'd be more woried about being target of magic missiles that do ... 2-4 D6 S3-4 wounds while having no MR.
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Aezeal »

NonnoSte wrote:Treekin don't block it either. Units can't block Line of SIght unless they're bigger than the unit behind (on the other hand, if you aplly real Line of SIght it could be tricky to determine). The point in monstruous infantry/cavalry is that they stop cannonbals because if the model isn't killed the cannonball can't bounce over.

The safest way to protect the Weaver is always to hide her behind some terrain piece. Even a wall or a fence can help, stopping the cannonball bounce (you can do nothing about perfect hits though).
That still only requires a 3+ though...unless you intend to string all 3 hawks in the line of the cannon.. which is possible ofc if you have room.
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Swift Guardian »

NonnoSte wrote:Treekin don't block it either. Units can't block Line of SIght unless they're bigger than the unit behind (on the other hand, if you aplly real Line of SIght it could be tricky to determine). The point in monstruous infantry/cavalry is that they stop cannonbals because if the model isn't killed the cannonball can't bounce over.
ok .. so tree kin are gone if they don't fullfil this purpose .. what could be the replacement for those points ??
I'm thinking about 10 rangers and a branchwraith

is it possible to provide hard cover through use of units ?? will the weaver be harder to hit if i put a unit of rangers or wardancers between the weaver and leadbelchers ?
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Aezeal »

Against ogres WWR can work, but more hagbane scouts might be a good idea too.
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by NonnoSte »

More arrows is always a solution.

To answer your question Swift Guardian, yes. Interposing units confer hard cover unless the target has the Large Target rule.
10 WWR are not that strong alone. I'd say two teams of 10 perform better or a single bigger unit (20-25). In small numbers, Wardancers are undoubtedly better (two units of 5 can be really effective to divert his approaching units from your archers).
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Swift Guardian »

Alright .. I will try the wardancers in combination with a small block of rangers
Seems like I will get to know a whole lot of different units in this game :-D

One more question came up during research concerning magic .. does the weaver and its unicorn get to use the strenght bonus of okkams mindrazor or toughness of panns pelt or does just the weaver get to use those buffs ?? how do I differentiate which part of the model is affected O_O ??

the more I read through the magic lores, the more I'm unsure which to use .. death, dark or high is pretty interesting for a mobile weaver I think
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by rawdogg15 »

Aezeal wrote:
rawdogg15 wrote:Would you consider putting your lord on an eagle instead of a unicorn? It's something I'm trying out in the list I'm currently building and it is a lot of fun. The extra movement and the ability to fly over things increases her ability to avoid lines of sight, but it might make her more squishy in combat (which I intend to avoid at all costs with mine).

A particular downside of this is that it often means you are compelled to fly her away from your GG, meaning you can't Hand of Glory them. I still think it's an interesting option though.
How does it make it that much worse in combat? I'd be more woried about being target of magic missiles that do ... 2-4 D6 S3-4 wounds while having no MR.
To be honest, I'm not fully familiar with the rules for the unicorn, so maybe combat strength isn't the difference between those mounts. My spellweaver will be carrying the talisman of preservation so has three wounds and a 4++ to survive the first turn. After that, I'm relying on protection tokens from the High Magic lore and the ability to move to difficult to reach parts of the table.

It was just a thought and that setup probably doesn't work with this army.
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Swift Guardian »

the point about the unicorn is that it provides MR (2) which will be very useful against magic missiles .. the weaver has got a 4++ save through the talisman of preservation and against magic missiles it would be 2++ .. so you don't have to fear a boosted fireball or something like that and you might want to save your only disspell scroll for another bigger spell

So the unicorn is used to protect the weaver against magical damage .. an eagle as mount simply can't provide that much protection
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Duraska »

I regularly play against Ogres, as that's what my buddy's army is. I would say I win about 50% of the time (recently I've been a bit more successful, at first I lost pretty regularly until I learned the WE army's strengths).

Basically I do not run a list tailored to fight Ogres, so you can probably make a much more efficient list than this, but I run:

(this is off memory, so the exact numbers might be slightly off)

Treeman Ancient (lvl 4 life) as General
Spellweaver on Horse, Talisman of Pres and Dispel scroll, lvl 4 Heavens (if I was going to run High Magic I'd drop the Talisman, but since you want a unicorn I'd recommend keeping it)

Eternal Guard x20 full command
Glade Guard x10 w/ Trueflight
Glade Guard x10 w/ Trueflight
Glade Riders x8 w/ Hagbane
Sisters of the Thorn x5 with lichebone pennant (if using unicorn, I'd pick something else)
Wild Riders x5 w/ shields
Wild Riders x5 w/ shields
Treeman
Waywatchers x5
Waywatchers x5
..thats around 2500 points, which is the size games we play.


Basically, the best tactics I can give you are:

If he uses the sabretusks (dog-things) shoot them with Trueflight if they're within 6" of any Ogre unit, this can cause that unit to take a panic if you kill the dog, which is great with their low leadership.

Use your fast cav! Dance/March around him, denying him his Ogre Charges / Impact hits. Remember if you attempt to march within 6" (I think it's 6"..) of one of his units you must take a leadership test first, but your fast cav is leadership 9, so you're good :)

Me personally, I either screen my Ancient with my Treeman, if he's running 2 cannons, or i just ignore the cannons and heal-up any hits they actually get. For some reason my buddy seems to roll misfires very frequently, I don't remember a single game where the cannon "won it" for him (but if he does kill my ancient, that's a big win for him).

Avoid combat against Maneaters, shoot them with trueflight instead, or avoid them all together. I tend to target them with Curse of Anraheir, but if he chooses the Strider ability for them don't do that.

Your eternal guard will die, but they exist to "lock" his combat block into place so you can counter charge with your Wild Riders.

Dispel his regen spell. Unless you're taking Banner of Eternal Flame on your EG, and they're in combat against his regen unit, Regen on Ogres is a pain to deal with.

Watch out for the Hell Heart. If you move your spellweaver too close she can die (I consider 20" or closer to be too close). Also, your Sisters of the Thorn don't roll on the miscast, they just auto-lose d3 models with no saves of any kind... which sucks. So a hell heart pretty much auto kills that unit. Try and draw it out by getting your Treeman Ancient close. He can withstand the miscast (unless you dimensionally cascade, which is funny anyway).

Your waywatchers have ONE mission. To hunt down his mournfang. 2+ armor saves dont matter against the waywatchers "no armor save" shot. :-) I like to bring my WW in 2 units, so that even if he gets a charge on one of them, I have a second unit to get another round to shooting in with. About 50% of the time, by turn 3 I've panicked his mournfang off the board. If he runs a unit of 4, one death from shooting = panic check.

Anyway, that's generally my tips against Ogres... but I'll be the first to tell you, I'm not a power player. I'm not super great at tactics and I tend to pick my army for "looks cool" reasons over "gotta win" reasons. My opponent is pretty power-gamey, but not terribly so (he uses the standard Ogre netlist most of the time). So I always go into the games expecting to lose... but hey, I get to roll dice and hang out with my friend... and sometimes the Wood Elves even win! :lol:
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Swift Guardian »

@Duraska:
thanks buddy .. pretty helpful tips ˆˆ

what do you do against his cannons ?? should I simply focus them with hagbane glade guards ? it's not that easy to just avoid them -.-
and I'm a little concerned about those leadbelchers .. I think I'm going to shoot his shooting units off the table as quickly as possible to be able to run around his charging arcs

I hope I don't forget to take pictures to be able to come up with a nice batllereport :-)
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Re: 1500 points against Ogres

Post by Duraska »

Swift Guardian wrote:@Duraska:
thanks buddy .. pretty helpful tips ˆˆ

what do you do against his cannons ?? should I simply focus them with hagbane glade guards ? it's not that easy to just avoid them -.-
and I'm a little concerned about those leadbelchers .. I think I'm going to shoot his shooting units off the table as quickly as possible to be able to run around his charging arcs

I hope I don't forget to take pictures to be able to come up with a nice batllereport :-)
Well, for Leadbelchers... They're BS 3, multiple shot d6, which looks really scary - especially when you realize they don't take to-hit penalties for moving and shooting or multiple shots!! However.. they're range 24", so any target 12" or more away from them still causes a -1 to-hit penalty. At BS 3, they normally hit on 4+, with -1 to-hit, they now hit on 5+. As I mentioned before, I like to run Lore of Heavens, and they're a great target for Iceshard Blizzard, which gives them another -1 to-hit penalty (meaning they hit on 6+ at long range). They cannot stand and shoot (they have slow-to-fire), so keep that in mind, HOWEVER... they will likely be on the board to simply hunt down your wild riders! Don't let him do that, because they will slaughter your unit. They're shot is strength 4 and armor piercing, so your Wild Riders will only get a 6+ ward against them. Not good. But, during deployment you can always use Vanguard to move your Wild Riders away from where he puts his Leadbelchers. Scouts, waywatchers, warhawk Riders, or trueflight glade guard will deal with leadbelchers very easily. Skirmishers atleast 12" away from them are safe (leadbelchers only hit on 6+ against them), and will still be close range for our bow units (within 15"). If you run a lore with a good direct damage spell, these could also be a good target for that.

As for the Ironblasters... I dunno. :D Someone else here will have to give you better advice that I can (sorry!). I generally never kill them, and mostly just ignore them and heal up my Treeman Ancient as much as I can (I have him cast at least 1 spell per round if i can, and if the sisters of the thorn are near, they'll throw a "pointless" shield of thorns out just to give him that +1 wound healing). When my buddy feels really brutal, and runs 2 ironblasters, I generally accept that I'm going to lose my general. At least he hasn't been clever enough to target my level 4 spellweaver yet, that would be more devastating I think. I would say this - just try to get your Treemen into combat as quickly as possible. They will probably be in combat by turn 2 anyway. so you just have to survive 1 to 2 cannon balls. If you're not running treemen, then I assume he'll attack your wizard, in which case I hope you just roll well on your ward save, or have those High Magic attribute tokens. In my opinion, using Hagbane against a 5 wound, 170 pt chariot is not the greatest idea... I'd rather use those archers against one of his combat units and hopefully weaken them or cause a panic, which can score me points in the end. Every time I've ever charged an ironblaster, I've lost terribly, so now I just ignore it. Like I said... others can probably give you better advice, but I would say... don't get too hung up on it. Sure, it feels overpowered (it is, really), but that's just one of those things you gotta accept when playing against Ogres. :lol:
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