ETC training for my opponent (dark elves)

[CauCaSus]

A friend of mine is training for an ETC tournament and asked me to bring something that could shoot a lot.

His list:
Dreadlord, Dark steed, heavy armour, shield, sea dragon cloak, giant blade,
dawnstone, OT shard 277
Supreme sorceress, level 4 life, Dark steed, dispel scroll, ring of hotek,
ruby ring of ruin 340
Master, BSB, Dark steed, Great weapon, sea dragon cloak, heavy armour,
dragonhelm, luckstone, crown of command 171
Master, Dark steed, lance, sea dragon cloak, shield, heavy armour, black
dragon egg 148
Master, Dark steed, sea dragon cloak, enchanted shield, ogre blade,
ironcurse icon 136
20 Dark riders, shields, full command 370
10 Dark riders, shields, x-bows, full command 230
5 harpies 75
5 harpies 75
5 harpies 75
10 shades, banner 170
10 shades, banner 170
10 shades 160
Total: 2397

The comp:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx-cjt ... lWc28/view

His got a lot of pts invested in characters with no ward saves so I'm tempted to load up on waystalkers, but they are pretty heavily comped. Not sure I understand the TF/HB arrow restrictions either, but I've asked him about that.

A list I made so far:
Spellweaver: Talisman of Preservation; Moonstone of the Hidden Ways; Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Shadow; Elven Steed 325

Spellsinger: Dispell Scroll; Level 2 Wizard; Lore of Heavens; Elven Steed 150
Waystalker 90
Waystalker 90
Waystalker 90
Glade Captain: Charmed Shield; Hail of Doom Arrow; Battle Standard; Great weapon; Elven Steed 149

10 Glade Riders: Trueflight arrows; Musician; Standard Bearer 240
10 Glade Riders: Trueflight arrows; Musician; Standard Bearer 240
8 Glade Riders: Trueflight arrows; Musician; Standard Bearer 196

5 Deepwood Scouts 65
5 Deepwood Scouts 65
7 Wild Riders: Shield 196
7 Wild Riders: Shield 196

5 Waywatchers 100
5 Waywatchers 100
1 Great Eagle 50
1 Great Eagle 50

2 392 points

[razorfate]

Hi.

In Etc format each 15 trueflight or hagbane archer after the first 15 takes 1 choice. If you get a total of 45 archers with these arrows then you have spent 2 choices.

Each 10 waywatchers is 1 choice so 2 units of 5 waywatchers are 1 choice.

If your opponent wants heavy shooting, the glade guard units are more effective pointwise. You can decrease the number of waystalkers (1 waywatcher with bow of loren would have the same psychological effect) to get 2 x10 waywatcher units which would be tremendously effective.

Also by getting 3 x10 trueflight glade guard you can create a no man zone from turn 1 which he would be hesitant to enter. In the build i suggested boosted harmonic convergence would work wonders so you can maybe want to have a second weaver instead of singer to increase the chance of getting and casting the spell.

2 units of deepwood scouts can counter his vanguard and scout moves.

[CauCaSus]

Those are all good tips, thanks.

I was also thinking, he doesn't have THAT much shooting, most of his killing power is in the characters, and those can easily charge out and kill small units of GG. What if I take all GR core and dance around him?

[razorfate]

It would be awesome. In that case your main threat to the enemy would be your spellcasters, wild riders and waywatchers. I'd go with a sisterbunker also. A light council can protect your troops while dealing damage too.

[CauCaSus]

Problem with the sisters is that they cost so much comp points, I'm at the limit already. You think a light council would be better than heavens or shadow? TBH I've never tried light

[Aezeal]

That army is pretty damn fast so even GR might have troubles evading it all. I think going for a lot of shots and trying to remove most of the chaff fast might be the best idea. Sure the GG units will die in the end but they will have done some damage and held up the enemy a bit.

I think the Eagles will be very usefull in delaying his deathstar type rider unit. After they kill the eagle you can shoot at them again. WW and TF can kill the riders quickly enough and then his characters are free game. He doesn't have the rerolling or the cloak of twilight so WW will rip through them once the lower AS riders are dead. You just need to have enough volume in shooting that you can clear most of his chaff. The WR will have lower init so is a small unit charges the characters they might whipe them out before they can hit. normally I'd use WR to mop up after shooting but against this deathstar/bus I think you might jsut try and charge them in the side to remove as many riders as quickly as possible. The characters will probably just kill the WR but after that you can break the unit more easily with shooting (and maybe mop up with the 2nd GR unit). I think you might need 2 turns to clear all the chaff and afther that probably 2 turns to weaken the DR unit.. so you will need to delay that bus anyway.. 2x GE can do a bit.. but the WR can do it too.

[CauCaSus]

Don't forget that he has lore of life so will be able to boost T and regrow the DRs. I think its easier to get pts by killing his shades and chaff and avoid the DR bus if possible.

Probably focus fire my WS on the sorceress otherwise he'll just regrow wounds back on any character I don't out right kill. I might have to make room for another WS since I won't get more than two shots per WS even with BoL.

[Aezeal]

- The sorc has not wardsave I think (not sure what Hotek does). The waystalkers will kill her in 2 turns, they shouldn't even use the armor piercing stuff, just MS 2 against her since the regular -1 AS will probably negate most of the save she has anyway. 6 shots on her should do 2-3 wounds a turn I'd guess (3+-4+ to hit, 4+ to wound).
- The T4 spell SHOULD be dispelled or scrolled the early turns (till the mage is dead). Since this is such a tailored list we can pretty reliably expect the mage to be dead turn 2 so no need to save the scroll anyway,.
-Btw: one of the waystalkers SHOULD get BoL (not for the sorc but for the other chars).
-In this matchup (since we are tailoring) and with these troops I'd not bother with moonstone. Then you can put the dispell scroll on the lvl 4 and for get the heavens mage too for some more troops.

[CauCaSus]

I just thought of something: the sorc will most likely be in the second rank so a further -2 to hir with shooting

VVV

I can't snipe her with anything but WS though. And with the comp, it doesn't matter which model has TF/HB.

[razorfate]

With trueflight, you do not care.
If you want to give him hell, take as much trueflight arrows, then fill the rest with waywatchers.
Do not take more than minimum number of glade guards, fill the rest with trueflight deepwood scouts.

[NonnoSte]

I think that if you want to go all shooting and you're tailoring against DE, you should take double L4 on High+Heavens.
You have great tools against elves in those two lores, while Shadow becomes less appealing if you're facing I5 troops against which you lose rerolls. Even Withering is much less important here than in other matchups.

[CauCaSus]

Good pts on the lores! I hadn't thought of that.

[Aezeal]

With trueflight, you do not care.
If you want to give him hell, take as much trueflight arrows, then fill the rest with waywatchers.
Do not take more than minimum number of glade guards, fill the rest with trueflight deepwood scouts.

This I agree with 100% GG are good, Scouts are better.

Also HIgh + heavens is nice but Life is just as good vs elves. Dwellers will deal more damage to the big darkrider unit I think (and has a chance to kill the chars too), Arcane unforging is nice but the enemy hasn't brought the most nasty items (I guess they are comped?). I think going life yourself might be a better choice: you have PLENTY ways to kill his army. If you can tie his bus a bit longer with a single unit that will be major (I seem to recall my GG tieing up a 1+ reroll DE master on Pegasus since they had T7 for 3 rounds in a row). Also throne vs miscasts is nice too.

[CauCaSus]

So heavens and life then?

[Aezeal]

I think that could be a good combination too.. but high isn't bad either.
Personally I'd just go 1x lvl 4 on life since I'm not that happy with heavens. Not sure if comp would allow it but then you could put even more archers on the table . And if you can't buy more archers (delete moonstone too I'd say - already mentioned that before I think) Maybe some more chaff to keep stuff away from the archers (5 man WD units or eagles etc or warhawkriders to clear chaff)

Does your opponent usually place his mage in 2nd line btw? Maybe he doesn't know enough about waystalkers... and if he puts it on the front line it's dead quick.

[CauCaSus]

I can take more archers, but it'll affect the comp if I give them HB or TF arrows.
I already took away the moonstone.

Putting the sorc in the second rank is pivotal to his plan, I'm pretty sure of it, thats why he has all the characters in the same unit.

[CauCaSus]

GG without extra arrows, TF on scouts. I'm not sure why TF is better on scouts instead of GG. I get fewer bodies with TF and my chaff is more expensive.

Lore of Life is kind of shitty in an MSU list like this as well. What if I don't get Dwellers? Then she's pretty useless. Light will let me protect my units vs shooting and give me higher Initiative in CC. Then my WR actually stand a chance in close combat vs his characters. Amyntok could stall his bus.



Spellweaver: Talisman of Preservation; Dispell Scroll; Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Life; Elven Steed 310

Waystalker 90
Waystalker: Bow of Loren 110
Glade Captain: Hail of Doom Arrow; Battle Standard; Great weapon; Elven Steed 144
Waystalker 90

10 Glade Guard: Musician; Standard Bearer 140
10 Glade Guard: Musician; Standard Bearer 140
10 Glade Guard: Musician; Standard Bearer 140
10 Glade Riders 190

7 Wild Riders: Shield 196
7 Wild Riders: Shield 196
8 Deepwood Scouts: Trueflight arrows 128
8 Deepwood Scouts: Trueflight arrows 128
6 Deepwood Scouts: Trueflight arrows 96

5 Waywatchers 100
5 Waywatchers 100
1 Great Eagle 50
1 Great Eagle 50

2 398 points

[CauCaSus]

A new list. Lore of light and TF back on the GG and GR.

Spellweaver: Talisman of Preservation; Dispell Scroll; Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Light; Elven Steed 310

Waystalker 90
Waystalker: Bow of Loren 110
Glade Captain: Hail of Doom Arrow; Battle Standard; Great weapon; Elven Steed 144
Waystalker: Ruby Ring of Ruin 115

10 Glade Guard: Trueflight arrows; Musician; Standard Bearer 170
10 Glade Guard: Trueflight arrows; Musician; Standard Bearer 170
10 Glade Guard: Musician; Standard Bearer 140
9 Glade Riders: Trueflight arrows 198

7 Wild Riders: Shield 196
7 Wild Riders: Shield 196
5 Deepwood Scouts 65
5 Deepwood Scouts 65
5 Deepwood Scouts 65
5 Deepwood Scouts 65

5 Waywatchers 100
5 Waywatchers 100
1 Great Eagle 50
1 Great Eagle 50

2 399 points

[Aezeal]

I think you should probably give all GG and all scouts special arrows (Since you can't do TF I would get the +1 to wounding vs destruction ones, delete WR, GR, scouts or even an eagle to get the points. (currently you'll neet 30 additional arrows at 4 points each so 80 points. Maybe go for 5 less scouts and then it's only 60 points: 1 GR and 1 eagle and you'll have some left overs.

Once you shoot the enemy chaff you'll just have one real problem to deal with so being able to make the things blocking that T7 or T8 will help IMHO. The chance you get dwellers is pretty good on a lvl 4 I think. Shield of thorns is good enough in MSU too and certainly against elves. Earthblood never hurts. And regrowth isn't worse for MSU either.

I think life can work for this army but light, heavens and high could too. A boosted doombolt from Dark wouldn't be bad either.

Apart from the arrow thing I mentioned above I think this list really counters his list on all points. It's not really fair to him (since he has an all comers list and imho - but not very good in DE and this comp - not even a great one).. but if that is what he wants.. it certainly is a shooty army.

[razorfate]

My post i sent last night was somehow not sent, probably i forgot to push the enter button:)

Trueflight glade guard is awesome but deepwood scouts are more awesome becuase they are scout and skirmish with only 1 point more cost than the glade guard.
So for maximum shootiness in ETC format would be:

12 Glade Guard: Trueflight arrows; Musician; Standard Bearer 200
12 Glade Guard: Trueflight arrows; Musician; Standard Bearer 200
12 Glade Guard: Trueflight arrows; Musician; Standard Bearer 200
This is your core aloowance we do not need glade guard more than this...

8 Deepwood Scouts: Trueflight arrows 128
8 Deepwood Scouts: Trueflight arrows 128
8 Deepwood Scouts: Trueflight arrows 128

There is a total of 60 trueflight arrows which takes away 3 choices.
Your other ETc choices are the extra unit of wild riders and 10 waywatchers.

With this list you will be as shootier as you can get while taking the minimum core allowance


Edit:
We can not take more than 3 units of special choice.
Light means generally light council, which is 1 level 4 spellweaver and 2 or 3 more level 1 or 2 spellsingers. You want to cast banishment with level 4, and spam signature spell with level 4 and others. Also pha's protection with level 4 to protect your troops in 12". (Banishment spell gets a bonus to the str value of the spell for each light spell knowing caster in 12" radius so if you go with 3 spellsingers, your bansihment spell will be str7)

[CauCaSus]

You don't think its worth the try to use waystalkers to take out his characters

[Aezeal]

I myself would do as razor says and go full GG for core and not more (so no GR - I don't think the GR are bad and if you have a plan for them they could be OK though). All other arrows should be scouts or WW.

Razor: If he needs comp points what do you think about going * fire arrows (since we are talking about going vs DE anyway). Scouts will probably not have long range so those arrows might actually do better than TF, +1 to wound is pretty good.

Against this army specifically a ligth council of total S5 for banishment would be enough if you go light council.. but I'd still go 3x waystalkers and 1x lvl 4 (and I'd prefer shadow, high, life). As I said I think the last list is pretty good already. Not taking special arrows when you can is a crime IMHO - if it's not TF or HB use something else.

ACTUALLY.. while thinking of the other arrows... the swiftshiver is very good vs this army too... no real high AS except the characters, all low T.

[razorfate]

I was thinking the scouts unit would deploy 25-30" away from the opponent inside woods and the trueflight glade guard would deploy behind them.
In this way deepwood scouts would give skirmishinig wood (light cover) and movement penalty (total of -3) to enemy dark riders.
The trueflight glade guard behind them would have long range, movement and hard cover penalties (total of -4)

But the suggestion i had made was against xbow infantry and repeater bolt throwers. Now looking again at the dark rider bus, enemy shooting comes from shades and 10 dark riders.

Trueflight archers should kill the shades in maximum 2 rounds (20 wounds per turn).
The life sorceress will give the deathstar regeranation and +2/4 toughness.

In this situation
We need fire : BSB should alwas take starfire arrows, A level 4 heavensweaver (convergence for own shooting trueflight arrows will benfeti from rerolling 1s, iceshard blizzard and chain lightning) and level 2 firesinger (fireball) with fire ring.
1 Waystalker with bow of loren can pressure his sorceress. Above 1 will take comp choice.
If we give starfire arrows to one unit to negate the regerenation bonus, we can give them to the 15 of the archers to regain 1 comp choice. Then to spend the comp we can add 10 more waywatchers . If we do this we will need high magic to buff BS of either the starfire arrows or waywatchers. In this case we will have two spellweavers with heavens and high. In this case we can delete the firesinger and take fire ring to one of the characeters (even the lone waystalker instead of bow of loren)

All in short our army build should be designed to work in harmony.

[CauCaSus]

I like this discussion!

Gonna take your suggestions and play around with the pts.

My problem is affording two weavers. I want to keep the wild riders for bunkering and cc threat, I want to keep the eagles for redirection and I want to keep the waystalkers for threatening his characters (I'm gonna kill the bsb in two turns sans healing).

Edit: actually, shooting for the characters is kind of risky. If I don't kill the target out right, the odds are he'll regrow the wounds. I don't think its worth aiming for the sorceress if she's in the 2nd rank and I'm 99% sure thats her where he'll keep her.

[CauCaSus]

Well, I lost 1240 to 850 or something like that. I forewent trying to snipe his characters with waystalkers and put the money in a lvl 4 heavens instead and she killed a ton of stuff with a powerful comet in turn three.

I was too far back with my GG so one unit didn't get to shoot until turn two and the other got panicked of turn one

My shooting actually killed like five models turn one so I was boned pretty early. The highlights were the Comet and my Wild riders putting the fear on the hearts of his bus. I charged them in and managed to kill the BSB and win combat with iceshard blizzard. One CR pt from him breaking! That would've won me the game I think.

God I hate death stars, I hope 9th ed kills them.