Playing vs WoC

[Aezeal]

lvl 4 life, scroll
Sisters on Dragon

13 GG TF
12 GG HB
10 GG HB
8 WW
7 WW
5 WR (champ, shields)
5 WR (champ, shields)
3 Warhawks

I'm wondering if this list (I used it vs DE) would be good vs chaos too. The magic choice could be changed ofc and since dwellers seems less usefull against chaos I think I might do that.
I like the 15 WW but I wonder if I should bring more scouts if he brings cannons (I like the sisters but I also wonder if 2 cannons shots might be a bit too much).

Can anyone tell me how those cannons of WoC work exactly? Do they scatter much? And how do they work in close combat and shooting (W/T and how it attacks back)? one of the things I need to know is wether 3 WH can kill it in melee.

Suggestions?

[Mollesvinet]

Hi Aezeal,

Agree on the change of lore, but which ones do you have in mind?


The hell cannon is a monster that can shoot as a stonethrower. It uses the small template with high strength d6 wounds in the center and S5 around it. It scatters an artillery die. 3 warhawk riders have no chance to kill it. At all. 6 wild riders to the face probably won't kill it, but almost. It has S6 T6 and about 5 wounds, 3 or 4+ armour save and a 5++ daemonic save. There is also a chance that some hits will hit the crew instead, leaving the cannon intact. It has like 5 or 6 attacks, but not very high WS.

Keep the waywatchers, they are golden vs his characters.

[Phil Rossiter]

What Thomas said.

This is one match up where I feel Hagbane > Trueflight because the former is helpful vs chariots etc, most stuff you need to kill is T5 with a good armour save and maybe a Ward. Trueflight maybe if you're bringing Shadow for Withering. If he brings Skullcrushers Waywatchers really come into their own.

High Magic can be good for Unforging if he brings Disc Lords. Beasts worth a look because Amber Spear rocks here and the buffs can help WR's and Dragon kill things. The Hellcannon are a threat but if you get the Dragon into combat ASAP it's a reasonable risk to run.

[Aezeal]

Well the dragon would be one of the guys aiming for the hell cannon.. so I'd hope that would kill the sister ASAP (not even sure if this guy plays with one though.)

I think I'll delete my warhawks for 8 scouts with hagbane, seems a saver bet

I might go full HB on the GG too considerning the T on .. well everything. If I can get a unit of 11-12 GG in range of a hell cannon that would really help my scouts.

34 GG (HB) to fit core = 510 (3 units)
15 WW = 300 (2 units)
10 WR (champ, shields) = 300 (2 units)
9 scouts (hb) = 144 (sadly.. 1 unit)
sister on ceitin har = 495
lvl 4 + scroll = 245
makes 1994

if I don't go live the mage will be vulnerable for miscasts though... and the hell cannons might be nasty if they target this one too.
I think 5 points for a dragonbane gem might be a decent (the best with only 6 points left really) investment for the mage,

For lore I'm inbetween life (still good, though dwellers is less good vs S4 and higher), metal (final transmutation and the damage spells should do their thing here), death: no AS on the snipes just leaves the ward saves which might actually kill them in 1-2 turns, especially the T test thing, shadows will do wonders with withering and then shooting with WW, but pit will be nearly useless against their insane high I. High night be nice too, has all sorts of stuff, a soul quench on a character might so some damage but all damage in this lore doesn't really do much against AS 1 stuff. (except unforging but using that to deal damage isn't very efficient eithr.

(PS plague of rust is irreversible right?)

So... I still don't know about the lores.

1. So anyone against full HB?
2. anyone against switching WH for scouts?
3. anyone against the dragonbane gem?
4. any more insights on the magic lore I should take... I'm leaning towards metal atm since final trans kicking in on 5+ seems at least as good as pit or dwellers and seems to have the best damage options against lords etc (though boosted searing doom is rather high in casting value). 2d6 hits wounding on 2+, no AS is rather nice I think.

[Mollesvinet]

Hi again. Metal sounds good, but beware that his daemon prince will most likely have dragonbane gem. This is why you still need your waywatchers. If you worry about miscasts, then high magic is good because of the counters. Destroying their magic items is really good! If you can destroy their ward, they go from 3++ rerolling ones to 6++ rerolling ones. Shadow has to be considered as well though, wither on a daemon prince and targeting it with waywatchers is certain doom.

Full poison gg makes sense.

I haven't used the warhawk riders as I don't have the models, but poison is really good here. Killing blow is only useful against disc riders, and it is still a long shot.

The shot from hellcannon is not flaming, so the ironcurse icon will help you more against it.

[razorfate]

I would vote for the high magic too. Arcane unfirging will benefit you hugely if you destroy the dragonbanegem on DP or ward save on unkillable bsb. A second level 1 spellsinger will be useful for threatening your opponent and make him keep his dispel dice.

The scouts should be at least 2x5 units instead of 1x9 imo.
Sisters wont accomplish much, i think and by dropping them you can find points for more waywatchers, eagles, more scouts, level 1 spellsinger and maybe sisters. ( i did not count the points cost...)
A BSB would help you for keeping your lines intact.
Clearly you need more chaff and more mobility so 1 or 2 units of GR can be uswd instead of GG.

[Aezeal]

Not flaming... ok... well that means protection will be hard to find. Ironcurse it is.. but really 6 + kinda... not so good.
The dragonbane on their characters is indead a problem with metal (which would mainly be targetting his chars anyway).

For now I have High as best option (I must admit I'm not really convinced but if everyone here thinks it's best I'd certainly be willing to try it - the counters against miscasts are indeed nice.. but won't help against me dropping in a hole into the void). Runners up are shadow, death and life (I still remember tarpitting the master on dark pegasus for 3 rounds with T7 GG last game).
How would you rate death vs his characteres (compared to high).

I must say that in my shop most guys don't seem to play the real nasty lists (they do play annoying armies) though so it could be there are no cannons at all and only one real kitted char (but I've not played this guy before). I'm not even sure we will be playing with the 50% lords thing (I'm pretty sure we don't play other end times stuff).

About that cannon: do I need to kill 5 crew or do I need to kill the monstrous beast cannon?


Edit:
I'm also considering getting standards on the WR instead of the champs for more CR (or 1 standardbearer + 10 point magic standard) , OR I could drop both champs and get some 25 point item instead of the iron curse.

[Mollesvinet]

Metal is still useful, there can only be two 2++ against fire after all. Bloodcrushers, chariots, knights and even warriors are still good targets for searing doom. Most lores are useful one way or another after all.

About the cannon, it has three crew and it is a monster. You need to remove the monster itself to get any points from it. It also has to test similarly as frenzy every turn, the crew are LD9 but the cannon is only LD4 so if you can remove the crew it will fail often. Also be aware that even if you just suffer a single wound from its shooting attack you still need to test for panic (at -1LD).

[Aezeal]

Hmmmz I can't really fit a BSB anymore though...

The thing is that the 2++ guys will probably be the most annoying to deal with so it would be nice if magic helped there.. other stuff I can probably deal with with regular shooting and waywatchers.

So mollesvinet: which lore would you use then.. because if I add metal that means I still have 4 potential lores to choose from.

[Mollesvinet]

If you want spells to deal with chaos characters, then amber spear, arcane unforging and wither comes to mind.

Wyssan or obviously mindrazor can also make WR pretty reliable against his characters and hell cannon.

[Aezeal]

I guess I'll go with high since that seems to be the preference of the majority, the counters are nice and a good bonus if the mage blows up or gets into combat. Though I wonder how many counters I'll get in an average magic phase if everything gets dispelled.

Maybe he'll only bring some troops and I can just shoot them of the table .

[Aezeal]

So a few notes here to keep a few important stuff for the upcoming report (after I get some replies on my questions in the rules forum).

He had
6 trolls + BSB (1+ reroll AS + great weapon)
1 lvl 4 tzeench demonprince 4++, reroll 1's... and that magic lore is NASTY.
15 chaos warriors
2 chaos chariots
1 hell cannon

I thought it was not as bad as some lists.. but considering it was build for the old 25% lords rule it pretty much packs most nasty things anyway except a 2nd cannon.

I lost, nearly got tabled (only a unit of scouts remaining): VP score: 1956 vs 1352 or something in his favor.

- my opponent somehow thought the dice where against him (my first turn I had a minimal above avg roll for poison, and he maybe failed 1 ward save too much that turn so he got 2 wounds on the DP in turn 1 and he rolled misfire and the 1 on the cannon in his turn) but really after that the dice where against me. I've had whole turns of rolling 3x 11-12 poison dice and not getting a 6. My wounding rolls where abysmal the whole game. I failed a panic test with my general, THEN failed to regroup next turn and later they fled of the table after loosing the battle with 1. (PS I think I'll listen to the smart people next game and just get that BSB).
-rolling 5 or 6 +1 in all my magic phases except the last didnt help.
- rolling 3 and 2 for the shots of arahan didn't help
- rerollable 1+ was much harder to kill than I anticipated (I put the sister on dragon against him and they only did 1 wound... turns out (DUH) that even iwth S6 he still had 4+ and a reroll on that.. which is nasty).
- High disappointed me.. but that was because I didn't use it right: The DP seemed to have a familiar and the 1 rerolling for wards and since I had him down to 2 wounds after 1 turn shooting I didn't bother trying to dispell it later (I killed the bugger so I was right). But next I didn't break his dawnstone either, I kinda forgot later and at first I thought it wasn't a big deal: see point above about what I think of it now.
- I forgot to use the high counters.
- his lucky rolls against the sisters I'll need to mention in the report too.

[Mollesvinet]

flaming banner on wild riders is really good against trolls. In the ill blood II tournament they took out the troll character and 4-5 of his trolls which destroyed the BSB as he failed the break test. I did get mindrazor on that charge, but just need +1 strength/-1 toughness to wound on 2's.

[Aezeal]

So I guess I'd like the BSB in the list.. not sure where to cut the points though, most things are pretty vital since I can't cut in core and the BSB means I'd need to remove a while unit of WR, scouts or waywatchers.... and those are pretty usefull units really. Deleting the sisters is an option (they didnt'do well last game, but that is partially due to an error I made.. but I'll show that in my report) but they are the only heavy melee option I have and that can be worth it in other settings.
I'd not mind a banner for +1 LD too or the gleaming pennant in the unit with my general (my remarks above and my upcoming report show why). Pennant doesnt'stack with BSB reroll though right? so that might be less usefull.

[Mollesvinet]

Drop the sisters, they are currently 25% of your entire army. It is nice to have a dragon, but without rerolls to hit and the poor breath weapon it can't do much to stuff that aren't infantry. The sisters themselves doesn't really add anything to close combat at all, and while their shooting is pretty good it isn't worth 500 points.

With 500 points you can get a lot of new toys