WE 2500 MSU list (please advise)

[Duraska]

I was listening to the MSU episode of the Dimensional Cascade podcast (love that podcast), and one of the hosts mentioned that in true MSU, you should avoid taking the big 200+ pt level 4 mages. This got me thinking about my current list, and how I could get almost the same (maybe ever better) results if i MSU-ified it a bit more. Here's what I'm working with, and I'd love some advice from you all about how you think it would work.

The general idea of this army is that no one unit is all that important. Excluding the Treeman and TMA, all units are under 160 points each (the glade guard are actually the most expensive units). Lots of shooting, followed by multi-charges. If my mages get killed, oh well. There's a lot of target saturation in this list (treeman/ancient, wild riders, glade guard, sisters, etc), should be difficult for my opponents to prioritize targets, which is good because anything he/she looks at too sternly will die. Built to face all-comers.




2460 out of 2500 pts (I have 40 points still to play around with... maybe some banners?) Hopefully including points in this post isn't against any rules... I'm just including them mainly to stress how MSU the army is.

Treeman Ancient (general) - lvl 2 [290 pts]

Spellsinger, lvl 1, Lore of Beasts, Elven Steed [90 pts] - She will ride with the sisters, and pretty much auto-take Wyssan’s Wildform (to cast on cavalry or treemen).

Spellsinger, lvl 1, Lore of Heavens [80 pts] - She'll hang back with a unit of glade guard in a forest. If she gets Harmonic Convergence that'd be great - she'd cast it every turn on the glade guard. Otherwise, she'd just take Iceshard Blizzard, which is pretty darn good too.

Glade Guard x10, Trueflight, musician [160 pts]
Glade Guard x10, Trueflight, musician
Glade Guard x10, Trueflight, musician
Glade Guard x10, Trueflight, musician

Deepwood Scouts x5, Hagbane [80 pts]
Deepwood Scouts x5, Hagbane
Deepwood Scouts x5, Hagbane

Sisters of the Thorn x5, musician [140 pts] - will bunker the lvl1 Beasts mage, but actually included to draw fire and for casting Curse of Anraheir (and to a lesser extent, Shield of Thorns for the healing lore attribute).

Warhawk Riders x3 [135 pts] - Ride out and charge enemy units/warmachines after they've been weakened by the hagbane scouts

Wild Riders x5, shields [140 pts] - pure death charges ;-) Will probably soak up some magic missiles/shooting
Wild Riders x5, shields
Wild Riders x5, shields

Treeman [225 pts] - There as an anvil, and to draw fire, will just march into combat as fast as possible with the TMA near by in case any healing is needed.

Waywatchers x5 [100 pts] - For high armor-save targets
Waywatchers x5



What do you guys think about only taking level 1 mages? Both Lore of Beasts and Heavens have good signature spells, and it keeps the points spent on magic incredibly low. They mages would die instantly if targeted, but hopefully they'll be useful until that happens. Treeman Ancient is level 2 (the base package). I'd love either Throne of Vines or Regrowth on him, mixed with Earth Blood to protect him and provide healing for him and the other treeman. But really... he can make use of any 2 spells from lore of life. Even with low level mages, I'll still start with 6 spells, so plenty of options to cast in each magic phase. Dispelling will be hard, but since every unit is small and throw-away, I don't have to worry too much about those "must-dispel" situations.

The general idea is that the Glade Guard start off focus-firing at a unit, hoping to cause a panic check (with the heavens mage casting either Harmonic Convergence (to increase their hits/damage) or Iceshard Blizzard, to lower the enemy's leadership). Meanwhile the hagbane go out warmachine/monster hunting, while the waywatchers tag team the unit with the highest armor. The wild riders are there to make my opponent cautious in his move phases, and if they soak up some BS shooting, that's fine... there's 3 units of them so some will still get thru. The warhawks are there for general support (flank charge things going for the glade guard, or charge warmachines/chaff, or to support anything being charged by wild riders). The sisters will be casting Curse on whomever needs it, and eventually can be used to charge into weakened units (putting those poisoned attacks to good use). This army is mobile and hyper-aggressive.

What do you guys think? Is it viable? It feels weird not having a level 4 spellweaver with talisman of preservation, but I think it could be very effective. Any ideas or recommendations?

[Phil Rossiter]

The big thing this list gives up (apart from BSB) is spell selection. Being able to throw four dice at a Lore and have a 90% chance of getting the spell you really need to combat what's across the table is key. I'd suggest making the mages lvl2, on the same Lore. Arcane slots are really good, an offensive item on one guy and Dispel Scroll on the other could work well. A big cast of Searing Doom, Shem's, Pit or Purple Sun on a Treeman needs to be scrolled, they're too expensive. I'm not too sure how well they fit this list, which is otherwise not that far from the standard one. Worth a try though.

[Duraska]

I think you're right about the treeman not fitting the list, but I have such a weakness for them What would you suggest in their (points) place? I feel like a Glade Lord is just not a great choice for a general.. Going for a level 3-4 mage makes me feel like they'd need protection (talisman, etc), making them end up close to the same points that the Treeman Ancient is now.

[Billthesurly]

An opposing high level caster (level 4) is going to be at a +2 to cast and dispel on your level 2 Ancient and +3 vs your level 1 Singers. That can get pretty nasty pretty quick. I advise bumping the Ancient to lvl 4 and one Singer to lvl 2. Loose the other Singer altogether.

Your choice of Treemen takes me back to the day when they were the only "plant based life forms" allowed in our army. With the exception of the low wizards, I would (and often do) play an army that looks a lot like yours. I would probably take one less unit of Wild Riders and include a Glade Rider unit - and make sure he knows you have it - just to keep him off balance.

[Duraska]

So I've taken the suggestions that you guys have given (thank you, btw!) and it's kinda funny but the list turns into something very similar to what I'm already running...

Treeman Ancient - lvl 3 general
Spellweaver on horse, lvl 4 Lore of High/Dark/Heavens (whatever mood I'm in), talisman of preservation, dispel scroll (I gave her the 4+ ward because i feel like at over 300 points you have to protect her)
Glade Captain - BSB, HoDA, Charmed Shield, Opal Amulet (goes in a unit of Glade Guard)

3 units of 10x Glade guard with trueflight and musician
1 unit of 8x Glade Riders with hagbane and musician

1 unit of 7x Sisters of the Thorn, with musician and standard (lichebone, to give 3+ against magic)
1 unit of 3x Warhawk Riders
2 units of 5x Wild Riders with shields
1 Treeman
2 units of 5x Waywatchers

I guess I was trying to see if it's viable to get more "MSU" style by dropping my expensive mage (she's 310 points), but I believe what you guys are saying is: in WHFB right now, magic is so powerful you need that dispel protection. Is that right?

If I were to drop the Treeman and Ancient from the list (how sad) what would you guys recommend in their place?

[Phil Rossiter]

I agree if you're paying for an Ancient you may as well go the whole hog to lvl4. Otherwise, if you're concerned about defence and want to cut mage cost, 2 x lvl 2, both with defensive Arcane items should be OK.

I'd give the Treemen a go.

[PGP]

Keep the lvl4 you are going to need him/her. Put also the bsb on steed and to sisters. I think the bsb has little too much of magical eq. at the moment. If you drop the ancient which I think you should, take banner of dicipline to sisters and hoda+obsidian trinket to bsb. Almost same effect, less points.

How about you take twin treeman with roots and two eagles (some people use hawks as these), So try to manage without ww and hawks. Treemen are bad, but two might be playable. You can little compensate ww by taking a metal lvl1/2 mage. Shadow lore lvl 4 is very good with woodies, even better with earthing rod. Death, high and dark can also work. Lvl1/2 can take the scroll.

Some banners might be needed. I think you should take 3x5 wr instead of gr. Flame banner to one wr get you flammable attacks and an additional banner.

I should stop putting the ready lists here, but this kind of list i had in my mind.

Lvl4, high/shadow/dark/death, steed, earthing rod, tal. Of pres.
Bsb, la, shield, spear/gw, steed, HODA, obs. Trinket, starfire arrow
Lvl1/2 metal, dispel scroll, maybe ring of eternal flame
Xx10 gg, mus, special arrows
3x5 wr, shield, 1xbanner of eternal flame
Sister unit, banner of dicipline
2xmen with roots
2 eagles
Some special arrow scouts, if you have points

[nXken]

For points denial, keep the mage mobile and bunkered.

The TMA is ok, although you'ld give up less points by taking a regular one (add roots to fit your mood)

I kind of agree with the triple units of GG and WR. But what will you do if you face an army of close combat-guys (WoC for instance)
They rush your lines and in 2 turns all your units are in CC... add 1 more turn for the eagles to redirect

3 units of WR leaves little points for Scouts (or am I missing an errata?)

Maybe fill out rare with WW's?

[~ Wardancer ~]

The Build should always be secondary..... Based off your deployment and plan of attack. With the MSU build you've gone heavy on vanguard / Scouts...... and probably given up the +1 to go 1st. With all those scouts and vanguard moves going 1st can end the game on turn 1 if you collapse a flank. Most armies take 2 to 3 turns to reposition effectively. So It's not a bad idea to have a plan to support those strengths. I like getting the generals leadership bubble up to support the scouts. Place the scouts right and they can be great redirector's for the wild riders to counter charge. I've found this plan works best for the build your thinking of. Of course in saying all this just remember the most important thing.

NO PLAN SURVIVES 1st CONTACT

[Phil Rossiter]

Treemen are bad

Treemen are risky. Not quite the same thing IMHO.

[Orion]

Spellweaver on unicorn if you really wanna point deny. High Magic.