Super Aggressive Level 4's ... or slightly less so.. or not.

[Hachiman Taro]

So it seems like wood elves are great at movement, good at aggression, magic and shooting, bad at defense. I came up with this "Best Defence is Offence" dual level 4 2400pt list:

Spellsinger, Level 4 Shadow. Wand of Jet, Dispel scroll, Steed

Spellsinger, Level 4 Death. Power Scroll, Power Stone, Steed.
(595pts Lords)

Naestra & Arahan, Gwindalor (if played as 2 T4 W3 characters)

16 Glade Guard, Trueflight Musician
10 Glade Guard, Trueflight, Musician
5 Glade Riders (no magic arrows)
5 Glade Riders (no magic arrows)
(600pts Core)

5 Wild Riders
5 Wild Riders
3 Warhawks
8 Sisters of the Thorn, Banner, Std Discipline

9 Waywatchers
6 Waywatchers

Playing 8th ed (no ET) rules (25% Lords)

So the general idea is to flatten anything that can hurt me quickly. Naestra & Arahan, warhawks (screening the sisters) & glade riders hit warmachines. Archers kill other shooting. Mages in sisters target opposing Lv4 mage / scary / fast characters or units with all those extra arcane item power dice before their lack of wards get them killed back. Wild riders charge at anything fast, waywatchers clean up. Then dance around and mop up whatever I can.

Shadow seems to synergise amazingly with Death for super aggression. Miasma, Enfeebling, Withering all super-charge the killing power of certain super snipey-killy Death spells, Steed can sneakily put the Death mage in perfect position to get them off, Occams is deadly anyway. Plus Shadow seems the go to lore for Wood Elves for withering/shooting or Occams. Plus the lore attribute might be tricksy with the two mages on steeds.

Death is great for killing characters, and works well with fast movers. Soul blight could stack Toughness hex with Withering. Miasa (on Initiative) could make Purple Sun a monster. Plus Death generates power dice to further overload the magic phase.

Some options:

High / Death would give a bit more balance. Protection counters are a bit of insurance, might allow forbidden rod instead of wand of jet to further overload magic, high hasn't got high casting costs, Arcane Unforging helps set up his characters for snipes, plus I like how fiery convocation can shut down your opponents next magic phase by making him dispel it with power dice (if you don't kill his mage already anyway). But no super scary combos like Shadow / Death.

Or Shadow / Life. Vines adds protection from Life miscasts in an expensive unit obviously. Enfeebling (strength hex) / Dwellers (strength test or die) would be super deadly! Life buffs for sisters / Wild Riders. Possibly Lichebone Banner could replace Std Discipline (which works with the death signature snipe), plus more healing / bringing back sisters. But no extra power dice from death and no death snipes, and the wizards are vulnerable anyway.

Is it too much though? Is it too aggro in the magic phase? Too extreme? Would it be fun to play against? I like the idea of a list that hits hard and fast, takes hold of the game and makes big dramatic things happen one way or the other. But not sure if it would be effective. So I'd love to hear any thoughts!

[Phil Rossiter]

The list is not that far from the standard ones. Two Arcane Items on one model is not allowed per pg 172. Additionally, I'd get Dispel Scroll in, auto-stopping a key cast can be massive. I'd also try to get at least MR2 in the unit to protect the characters. I believe it needs a BSB as well, failed Panic tests can be very painful.

I'd try to fit Enchanted Arrows on the Glade Riders, it's worth it. Shields on the Wild Riders too.

[Hachiman Taro]

Yeah it's just the magic lores that is the issue I'm really talking about (apart from the multiple arcane items, which you point out as wrong). Gee you know the rules well! Thank you.

Beyond that it is just pretty standard. Is it common to take Shadow / Death Lv 4's? It might just be my inexperience but it seems like it would be really powerful on paper.

Also there is a dispel scroll in the list above, though I'd have to lose other stuff to keep it legal. So Just to make it legal it might make it:

Spellsinger, Level 4 Shadow. Obsidian Amulet, Dispel scroll, Steed

Spellsinger, Level 4 Death. Power Scroll, Steed.

Naestra & Arahan, Gwindalor (if played as 2 T4 W3 characters)

16 Glade Guard, Trueflight Musician
10 Glade Guard, Trueflight, Musician
5 Glade Riders (no magic arrows)
5 Glade Riders (no magic arrows)
(600pts Core)

5 Wild Riders, Shields
5 Wild Riders, Shields
3 Warhawks
8 Sisters of the Thorn, Banner, Std Discipline

9 Waywatchers
6 Waywatchers

Playing 8th ed (no ET) rules (25% Lords)

That adds the MR 2 and the shields for the Wild Riders. What would you drop to get BSB plus enchanted arrows on Glade riders? That's about 150 pts without magic items.

I could drop the Twins and get BSB+ Steed + Shield + HODA, plus another unit of Wild Riders (without shields) and Hagsbane for the Glade Riders. Would that be a good deal? I do like the twins. They seem to be hard to kill, and kill other hard to kill / get to things at range well. Without them I worry I won't be able to kill warmachines before my mages Sisters unit gets cannonballed.

Lastly can't the Glade Riders just charge warmachines if that's their job? Are hagsbane for 10 of them as useful as say, the HODA? Seems like it's maybe only 1 extra wound per shooting phase between 10 all things considered, and they lose at least one of those shooting phases.

Without the extra power generating arcane items I feel like looking for other things to generate power dice might be worthwhile. I noticed a lot of the US masters lists included branchwraiths. I'm wondering if it's worth dropping something for a couple of them, mainly just for the extra channels. But they also could be re-directors / road bumps, add some backbone to archer units with their strength, toughness, wounds and attacks...

[Phil Rossiter]

You're welcome.

My bad re the scroll. I feel one spell-boosting item should be enough. The power of 2x lvl4 lies in the spell selection, not massed casts, so much. Whatever you fight, you should have casts available that really hurt. Even low Winds can be a great phase if it means you force through one key spell. High Magic is popular as one of the Lores because the Protection Counters help the bus and the toolbox spells go well alongside a more aggressive Lore. But Death/Shadow is interesting. In my experience a Branchwraith can be a good addition to a combat block like Eternal Guard or Rangers. I'm not sure you get quite enough utility otherwise, you have three channels already.

I'd either drop Gwindalor or the Warhawks. Both useful but neither essential to this kind of list. Charging war machines is one thing Glade Riders can do but they are also redirectors, archers, chaff clearers etc.. Maybe drop one Sister. The characters should be fine vs cannon because you have Look out Sir, High Magic would be an extra insurance.

[Hachiman Taro]

Thanks for those thoughts. It's really helpful to talk it through with someone who knows their stuff.

I feel like I have to lose Gwindalor if it's a choice between him and the warhawks. The warhawks are less dangerous/useful but I feel like Gwindalor needs warhawks to screen him vs warmachines for the first turn or two. He's not very useful dead! If it wasn't for the scary cannon rules I'd probably swap both to take the twins on the dragon.

If the warhawks aren't essential (and Gwindalor isn't there to screen) is there something better to replace them with? Still need to kill warmachines. Maybe hagsbane scouts?

I feel like if I'm relying on protection counters with High I'm not using the list right. Protection for my wizards should be getting into position fast (close and out of front arcs) then wrecking whatever can hurt them first ... Shadow / Death brings so many options for doing that. But Shadow / Life brings a really killer one too (Enfeebling / Dwellers). In the end I think the extra dice (and good signature) from Death swings it.

If I could fit it in 25% Lords I might just put them both on unicorns, drop the SOTT, add wards and screen them with the warhawks. I suppose they could start in the Wild Riders with steeds and do the same thing, but they'd be very vulnerable then!

8 SOTT plus 2 wizards makes 2x5 wide ranks for an extra +1 to cast Curse of Anraheir. Do you feel that has much value?

[Phil Rossiter]

Yes, Hagbane scouts are a good shout.

The beauty of High Magic is that you build up insurance while casting useful spells. Even with MR2 the characters are vulnerable to Death snipes. Miscasts can really hurt. An enemy with good shooting can take a chunk out of the bunker if he focuses fire. Late-game combat becomes an option. Plus you still have one Lore that just kills stuff.

Yes, I'd make the bus 10-strong including characters. But one of those should be a BSB IMHO.

[Hachiman Taro]

After thinking about it a bit I think this is what I'm going to do:

Spellsinger - LV 4 Death, Power Scroll, Steed
Spellsinger - LV 4 Shadow, Dispel Scroll, Steed

Naestra & Arahan, Dragon
Glade Hero, BSB, HODA, Steed

16 Glade Guard, Trueflight (Musician)
10 Glade Guard, Trueflight (Musician)
5 Glade Riders
5 Glade Riders

6 Wild Riders, inc Champion
6 Wild Riders, inc Champion
7 Sisters of The Thorn

2 Eagles

It's missing out on some things Phil suggested but it moves fast and presents a lot of threats for it I think. Decided to go with twins on dragon because they're cool and can double charge with wild riders to win big combats. Could swap one of the lores for high, some of the arrows for hagsbane, or even the eagles for 5 waywatchers or some MR, depending. But that isn't many models to swap out (and I think I'll get some waywatchers anyway because I really like the models).

Thanks heaps for the advice Phil!

[NonnoSte]

The list looks really powerful, but I'd take the High advice.
Factoring in the High Magic, the combination Death+Shadow looks the least appealing of the three, especially with a lone Dragon in the army.
Shadow + High is full of little synergies where no spell is ever wasted, while Death + High makes the most dangerous and murderous combination, with the opportunity of huge magic phases thanks to Death's attribute.

Of the three I think that High+Shadow is the more synergistic with your army, allowing TFA and HoDA to wound tougher targets and helping WR to survive better under BS shooting and in combat.

Lastly, I hink that with a Dragon and 5 fast cavs you don't really need Eagles, while 5 WW could even just condition your opponents game and force him to take bad choices.

[Hachiman Taro]

Thanks for the thoughts NonnoSte. I'll definitely playtest all those options and see what works for me. Super easy to do since the models don't have to change much.

I do feel like shadow / death has some nice synergies too though.

Miasma (on I) -> Purple Sun
Steed (/smoke and mirrors) -> Put death mage in position for snipes
Enfeebling -> Caress
Withering -> Bjuna / Soulblight / Doom and Darkness (+panic check)

Plus shadow helps you destroy units (withering / mindrazor) whilst death helps you assassinate characters / monsters (snipe spells). Both target I a bit often though (sucks vs elves). I can see how high can do similar things without that, plus it's much safer, so maybe you're right.

Same with waywatchers. Can see how my shooting is weak vs armour, and waywatchers are pretty awesome. Just like the mobility / ability to screen of the eagles, and wasn't sure 5WW would make that much difference. Guess I'll have to try it and see

[Phil Rossiter]

I feel MR 3 on the bunker is very important because none of the characters have Ward saves.

Agree with NonnoSte, I'd drop an eagle to get it.

[Hachiman Taro]

I feel MR 3 on the bunker is very important because none of the characters have Ward saves.

Agree with NonnoSte, I'd drop an eagle to get it.

Yep, taking away an eagle and adding Obsidian Lodestone gives me a few points extra to give the BSB starfire shafts and a shield or spear too.

Just to clarify - MR 2 would give the bunker troopers 2++ vs magic wounds (with LOS! for the characters), and you always fail on a 1 anyway, right? So it's only against wounding spells that can specifically pick out a character that those characters (only) would benefit more from MR3 (at least until the bunker goes below 5 troopers)?

I do like that way you could just swap the dragon for equally cool waywatchers and have a list with the same core elements that plays quite differently. Think it's nice that this variation looks like it can single out a flank and smash it fast in close combat as well as hit hard in the magic phase (and shoot a bit). Seems like it'll be fun and challenging to play - as well as powerful enough to win if I play well.

[Phil Rossiter]

Yes.

You'd probably get by quite happily until you ran into Death and then the characters would die horribly. You have a scroll and mobility but that's not enough in my experience. The 2+ save on the bunker is great of course. You could try MR2 with Gamblers Armour on the BSB and a true Ward on the General. In these set-ups there's no reason not to take Standard of Discipline because it gives you a Ld10 General.

Alternatively you could go with Gamblers' on the BSB, 5++ on one mage and 4++ on the other, topping it up with Lichebone Pennant on the unit for MR1.

[Hachiman Taro]

Yes.

You'd probably get by quite happily until you ran into Death and then the characters would die horribly. You have a scroll and mobility but that's not enough in my experience. The 2+ save on the bunker is great of course. You could try MR2 with Gamblers Armour on the BSB and a true Ward on the General. In these set-ups there's no reason not to take Standard of Discipline because it gives you a Ld10 General.

Alternatively you could go with Gamblers' on the BSB, 5++ on one mage and 4++ on the other, topping it up with Lichebone Pennant on the unit for MR1.

All good ideas. Just points allocation is the problem. Isn't the best defence for wood elves smashing face first ? Enemy death mage would be priority no1. I know that's a gamble, but everything is. Hopefully I have the advantage because I'm more mobile and have a specific plan to kill the things that can hurt me first. Eagles can kill stuff!

Can definitely see the argument for Ld10 + MR. But then if I do delete the eagles I could get 3 x 5 wild riders + MR 1 instead, that's more death on legs! Seems to me adding more threats protects my mages in a less obvious but perhaps better way? And if they do die I have other options...

Probably the only way for me to know is to get the models and playtest some variations. Thanks heaps guys for getting me to that point Always happy to hear more suggestions!

[Phil Rossiter]

I agree, try it out.

You'll probably come up with your own adjustments as you go.

[Hachiman Taro]

arrgh!

When I looked a bit closer I realised mounted BSB + Twins on Dragon is over 25% heroes @ 2400pts (could do it without HODA @ 2500)

So I took BSB out, made it 3 x 6 WR with champs, Ld 10 banner + MR2 on bunker, HODA goes to one of the mages.

Other option is to leave BSB in, take the dragon out, fill the points with waywatchers / scouts which would be cool in a different way. Really want Shadow for Withering if I do that!

I'll try both and see how it goes...

[Phil Rossiter]

I may have missed this but will you not be playing with the updated 50% allowances for Lords and Heroes?

[Hachiman Taro]

Nah, the group I'm to play with plays straight 8th. 25% Lords, no end times, no comp, anything in the rules goes with varied degrees of power, fun and fluffiness depending on player preference.

[Mollesvinet]

Straight 8th has 50% hero and lord allowance now, it is in the FAQ. Along with undeath being available to all wizards, also in the FAQ.


If you stick to the 25% it is more like playing old school 8th :P

(which is also fine of course)