I would definitely go for the charmed shield over the helmet of the wild hunt.
This is a preference thing in my mind. I have a 4++ the whole time vs the cannons and I think a 3+/4++ is better than a 2++ once. 4+ 4++.
...
That's my justification anyway.
Fair enough, it is your call. I would still prefer the dragon helmet in that case then, would save you from flaming cannons at least and also searing doom. At least that would be much more valuable than +1A on the charge, as I see it.
As you said yourself:
henrypmiller wrote:My overall impression of this build is that it is perhaps better than the one I proposed. the S6 is a lot better for grinding down units. The dragon will rarely kill his target in 1 go if solo-charged into a unit (even with S6) so a spear, although cost efficient, is sub par.
In any case, I appreciate your work with the dragon. I love playing with a dragon as well, so any thoughts and experience that can help are much appreciated. Good luck!
Phil Rossiter wrote:The Dragon is a Monster, so takes damage separately from it's rider.
See page 105.
Aha thanks, that is good to know. I don't have the army book with me atm. So one more question please, can you allocate the wounds yourself and choose who to defend with or does the attacker choose which one to attack?
A cannonball will hit both rider and dragon. In close combat the enemy can split attacks as he pleases. Each BS shooting hit randomises between the Dragon (1-4) and the rider (5-6).
Yup! As Phil Rossiter (got it right this time) says, the cannonball counts as a template weapon in this case so if it contacts the base, it hits both the rider and the mount.
A trick if you are being game-y is to have the dragon positioned sideways, facing perpendicular to the line of the cannon shot. This makes it slightly less likely to hit (I think 1/6 less of the time or something). But this isn't always a good idea if you want to charge something.
Either way I will post some more thoughts after this weekends tournament.
I'm going to try and give an in depth analysis of the dragon list from this weekends tournament (2day) and also drawing on some previous games.
Firstly the list I used this weekend (2200 points):
Glade Lord, light armour, shield, helm of the hunt, sword of might, other tricksters shard, talisman of preservation
Lv2 heavens scroll of shielding, ruby ring (dispel scroll is better here but was banned) - Heavens is awesome!
Waystalker bow of Loren
Noble BSB, great weapon, armour of silvered steel, luckstone, trueflight (really good for charmed-shield sniping. You would be surprised with how often you miss!)
22 eternal guard, shields, full command, standard of discipline
10 glade guard, trueflight, musician
10 glade guard, trueflight, musician
7 wild riders, banner, gleaming pennant
3 warhawks, champion
5 wardancers (stars of the show)
6 waywatchers
eagle
In general I thought that the list was great! It was fun to play and fun to play against (I think/hope).
The first game didn't go so well. I lost 19-1 to the eventual tournament winner playing Beastmen! He charged in a gorgon to the dragon which I was fine with. It was in a safe position and I figured I could kill it in a couple of rounds of combat. However he double wildformed the gorgon - both spells going off with irresistible force. S8 t8....Yeah. Both the lord and the dragon survived two rounds but eventually fled off the table after taking 4 wounds in the second round. I probably shouldn't have given him the charge (I think it was a 10) but his dice were crazy that round. Loads of 6's. Double sixed a frenzy test on a khorne chariot 20" away from my warhawks (positioned purposely so he had to test) then double sixed the charge. Eurgh.
Second game vs Empire. 1 cannon, 1 hellbblaster, demigriphs, knight bus, couple of big blocks. The dragon was great here. Once the cannon had been dealt with (he left it a bit exposed and my warhawks and waywatchers were able to get in behind his line - then it exploded anyway) he flew out from behind a tower and breathed on a big unit. The wardancers held up the demis (stubborn in forests and 3++ worked for me so many times) then the dragon charged in the rear. In the final turn it then killed off the grandmaster with a runefang who was on 1 wound after his unit got the wild rider treatment. This was a 20-0 to me.
Third game vs sit in the corner lizardmen. 1 block of temple guard 1 saurus, party slann, load of skinks, 6 krox. The dragon was a bit redundant but I went for the big win anyway. Ended up having to use the dragon to block a unit of saurus with a scarvet cowboy and oldblood cowboy from charging the wild riders who had overrun off the board. I set up a flank charge on the wild riders if the saurus charged the dragon, which they did. He didn't challenge which was kinda stupid but it ended up benefitting him. Think I killed around 8 in the first round, all attacks going on the unit to try and thin the rank bonus down if he decided to challenge next turn. on my turn the riders went in but as I had killed the back two ranks of saurus, now they were just in contact with the scar vet and couldn't wound him (maybe I did 1 wound). The dragon now focussed on the old blood and likewise couldn't wound him (think I did 1 again) he was steadfast and held. Next turn the temple guard hit the riders in the flank and the dragon fled from the res but rallied on the final turn. The rest of the game was me trying and failing to roll 3s to wound skinks. and the eternal guard killing the krox but loosing the BSB in the process. Was an 11-9 loss.
Game 4 vs dwarfs. 3 big infantry vanguards, 1 cannon, 1 organ gun. Was a crazy fun game that ended 10-10 but not in a way that you would expect. Waystalker sniped a champion turn 1. Dragon charges in from behind a house turn 2. I went to town but the unit was steadfast. I used the eagle to prevent a counter charge from a big block. However I got charged by 5 rangers in the side. Lord attacked the rangers, killing 4. I should have ensured I killed the last 1. This was the biggest mistake I made the whole tournament. But I did the rest of the attacks on the other unit bringing them down to 2 models (took maybe 1 wound on the lord in the first round). He needed a 4 re rollable. Fled with the longbeards but stayed with the ranger. This allowed the ironbreakers and BSB block that had killed the eagle to charge in (again I had sniped the champion). If I had killed the last ranger I would have been in his backfield, taking off his warmachines. The BSB challenged and died. I held. Next turn the lord was killed but the dragon ground the unit down and eventually finished it off. It then went on to finish off the iron drakes. He cleared up most of my other stuff with his organ gun and gyros. I haven't really got an answer for the gyros. The waywatchers managed to kill one in turn 6 but T5 and 4+ is tough to take out with shooting. The wardancers were epic here. He charged in the third block (longbeards) into 3 wardancers (in a wood, 3++ stubborn). 1 survived, so he reforms to face my 5 remaining eternal guard an BSB (to take them in the front). Next turn the wardancer negates his rank bonus. Nor is he steadfast as he is in a wood. Both do 2 wounds, but I have a flank, charge, extra banner, fails his LD 7 (BSB is dead) but I cant run him down and he rallies! wild riders were faffing around with the iron drakes. My plan was to chip them down to around 5 models then push up the wild riders and take the shooting in the face then charge in with the remaining guys. However my dice were awful and the turn I pushed up, I did no wounds with shooting, leaving 8 models. He then proceeded to destroy the whole unit.
Game 5 vs warriors. Good match up for me. No hell cannon. dragon ogres, giant, pretty much all the stuff you don't see. No juggers. He had 3 characters on demonic mounts. Nurgle lv4. Dragon charged into the BSB knight unit. He had the BSB on the mount and 3 knights left (WS7, 1+ 4++, T5, Great weapon). dragon took 2 wounds and the lord took 1. I did 1 on the BSB (hitting on 3+ from helm of the hunt in the first round) but I held on a re-rollable 8. He charged in his giant in the next turn were still in a challenge so he cant fight but I kill off the BSB. Now 4+ to hit and 4+ to wound. 4 hits 4 wounds. Fail 2 saves. Fail 1 ward save. Re roll from the tricksters shard. Take it off. Next turn I dothe final wound on the giant and it falls over onto the knights that have thus-far being waiting patiently for the challenge to be over in their khorne fuelled frenzy. Dragon takes a third wound from the giant but the lord passes the 4++. The Dragon then flees from the nurgle wizard (S6 and T6 from the warshrine), rallies in my next turn. The wizard then kills the dragon with the T test d6 S5 spell but luckily the lord passes his test and takes no further wounds (left on 1 wound)! The rest of the game was me shooting and cometting his stuff off the board. 20-0 win with just the lv4 left alive.
I ended up 10th out of 45 or 46 people after paint and sports. The Dragon did great all tournament. I think I was lucky with the match ups. There were a lot of Demons players with bloodthirsters and soulgrinders that the dragon cant handle. I faced no elves and only a few cannons.
The build, as I said is about as good as you can get. 3+ 4++ is the best save you can get on a woodelf. The OTS is essential. You can also go armour of destiny, OTS, fencers blades for max protection, but the S4 output on the lord is kinda bad. The dragon does the killing, but ASF S5 can chip off those extra attacks coming back at you, before the dragon strikes is sometimes better defensively than the WS10 (for instance wounding the giant in game 5 on 5s rather than 6s (nurgle) giant before it stuffed my lord down his pants or something). Sword of might is also good If I get charged. There is mileage in a spear but S5 the whole time is markedly better than S4 AP in round 2.
You could also go with the dawnstone in this build but a 3+ re rollable isn't great. Most of what you will be fighting is going to be S4 or higher so a 4+,5+ or 6+ re rollable isn't all that.
Charmed shield isn't necessary in my opinion as you can hide and avoid cannon fire until you are ready to commit to something. The 3+ is better than removing the first hit because of small missile fire, like skinks who pepper you with shots.
The lord was killed only once the whole game, if you don't count running off the table. So I don't think spending more on protection is that useful. Iceshard is also a great spell to help protect the lord.
Im really happy with the build and how the list worked. I think my next project will be a Stag BSB/noble list. Maybe double stag!
Game one just sounded like sheer bad luck. The Empire game looked like good play. The Dragon seemed to do a good job several times of grinding stuff out. He's murderous against infantry and with the Lord's help pretty good against mid-level targets too. But vs those Saurus characters he lacks the killer edge because even 5 S6 attacks isn't always enough. I've read a lot of Star Dragon reports and it's hard for us to get close to that kind of killing power. My set-up has a Lord with 4S6 AP ASF which can get wounds through, backed up by some static res from a cavalry bus. Here it looks to me like you would really benefit from getting the EG into some of those combats.
The other thing is magic, I was going to suggest getting another lvl2 in but it's hard to cut troops and I know you rate the Waystalker. I know you found Heavens good but might Beasts give you that edge to take down the toughest characters? Might be worth putting the BSB on an eagle to give the Dragon more direct support.
The waystalker is good but very match up dependant. The dwarf game where I was sniping champions, he was awesome. The empire game, he killed the BSB and warrior priest. Chaos game he wasn't so good because all his characters had 4++. He did kill a warrior champ though, and serve as food for a shaggoth to give me another round of shooting at him (which brought it down). In the lizard game he killed a skink priest, then tried to run over to the other side to get the second one but was promptly fire-balled to death by the slann. In the beastman game one of his level 2's blew himself up with the wildform miscast. The second one was alive on one wound and I just couldn't roll the 5+ to kill him off or I wasn't hitting. BS 7 is great but you get -1 for multiple shots, -1 for long range usually, 90% of the time you are moving him as he sits in a unit of archers so -1 there. -1 for sniping and maybe -1 for some cover. But even at 4+ to hit with 2 shots its still decent. If you can kill 1 character per game and keep him alive, he is worth it in my mind but the champ sniping is awesome when combined with the dragon. I'm not so bothered if the dragon goes into combat and has to kill characters in challenges.
-You get the idea about the ups and downs/matchups.
As for magic lore, I can see the utility of wild form. However heavens is a better lore I think for a single lv 2 for the following reasons.
There is only 1 spell in heavens which is rubbish (wind blast). If I roll that, I swap to ice shard automatically. All the other spells are useful all the time. Even chain lightning with a high casting value (15+ to cast) can be cast easily with a lv 2. need to roll a 12 if I'm stood in a wood.
Harmonic convergence on a waystalker is filthy btw - especially when the opponent forgets he is stood in the unit of archers.
Iceshard on cannons can save the dragons bacon.
Comet ensures that the opponent comes to you which allows your fast stuff to get in behind him while the eternal guard and wardancers become the anvils.
Beasts is more situational. Yes wildform is a better signature spell and would work well with the other elements of the army (eternal guard and warhawks spring to mind). However there are a number of spells which aren't as good. Transformation is a waste of time. Especially on a lv 2 who will find it hard to cast compared to the pay off. The magic missile is a bit meh. Curse/spear are great spells but the combat buffs have really short range and if the dragon is flying off, which it tends to do, its not that great. It relies on getting the right spells for the right matchup and getting good rolls at the right time. Its more of a lv4 lore for me. I tried it myself in the same tournament last year with a lv 2 beats and a star dragon list.
A successful magic phase relies on 2 things. Enough dice to cast spells and relevant spells to cast. The heavens spells can be used on every turn of the game for utility whereas the beats spells cant. With a single level two it makes it difficult to get any spells off unless you roll the correct pair of spells. An opponent will always allow you t cast wildform on turn 1/2 when you are not in combat and stop the amber spear. Whereas he will always stop the wildform when you are in combat because there will be less viable targets for amber spear (as an example).
The ruby ring is a great item on a level 2 and can serve to mitigate this. Throw 1 dice at it first. If you roll 3+ the opponent is almost forced to throw 2 dice to stop it (if it is a squishy target).
I can see milage in 2 level 2s - one heavens one beasts, but then the points are better spent on a lv 4 if the comp allows.
And yes the BSB on the eagle would have been my first choice but the comp system allowed only 1 mounted character before I lost comp points. However I would usually have him on an eagle. If I boosted the game to 2400 points, I would have him on an eagle and a lv 4 heavens/high on a unicorn over the level 2.
I use Great Stag, Ogre Blade, Charmed Shield, 4++ in a unit with Razor Std. I'm not saying it's better than the dragon but those attacks can hurt a guy with a 1+ RR for example. That's why I suggested Beasts. I don't dispute that Heavens may be a better lore here in general but a combat list needs a way to deal with those super-hard characters. Pushing the Dragon up to S7 and the lord to S6 gives you a way. It's quite common to roll up a 7v5, 6v4 or 4v3 phase. Normally that means that a scroll is the only way to stop the spell. Lvl2 v lvl4 makes it less clear but you still have a good chance of forcing Wildform through.
Very interesting indeed. I love to play with the dragon as well, so glad to hear some good stories with him.
I get that you like 3+ armor save on the lord compared to 4+ with the charmed shield, but I would still consider another armour item than the helmet of the hunt. A 2+ ward against fire for example with the dragon helm.
In any case, good job and thank you for writing all these experiences and discoveries.
@Mollesvinet
Dragon helm is for sure a viable option. I think you could even fit in an ogre blade if you are comfortable with just a 5+ ward and OTS (if you were feeling brave).
@Phil Rossiter
I like the stag build! But I would probably still go for a 3+ 4++ In a unit of sisters I assume?
With Heavens, harmonic convergence can be pretty nasty in combat on the dragon. Its not as good as the extra strength/toughness but its still good.
Ehy,
I just wanted to thank you for the indepth overview about the Dragon Lord.
I'm going to play a two-headed tournament running Dark Elves and the Dreadlord on Black Dragon is something I'm considering, so your feedback is being precious.
From experience, do you think that the 1+/3++ vs ranged damage would be enough an emprovement to make him competitive even in an uncomped setting?
I want to say now that I am not an expert on the dark elf book/items but I will give you what knowledge/opinions I have.
The Black dragon is a complete different cattle of fish. Because the Glade Lord max save is 3+ 4++, it is seen as a very underpowered version of the dragon rider (and rightly so). The essence of the forest dragon discussion is to find the best/optimal build you can despite it being underpowered.
However the Black dragon is markedly better. Firstly the breath weapon is S3 -1 save I think? Which is a small but significant improvement and maybe slightly more expensive as a result? The real deal beaker is the better save you can get on the lord which makes the model more survivable.
I would always go into battle with a 1+ save on the dreadlord because you can do it without magic item allowance. Mounted + sea dragon cloak + heavy armour + shield = 1+. In addition to this you need a ward save (for sure) and ideally OTS (in my opinion). In a no-comp environment you will expect to see many cannons, in this case charmed shield is useful. If you take this then your magic armour allowance is taken, and therefore you need a 4++ from the talisman.
I would avoid the cloak of twighlight on a dragonlord. Yes, he is better protected and hits like a ton of bricks and can do crazy overkill in a challenge but units will still be steadfast so its wasted. Importantly he will be more vulnerable in combat. I like the cloak on a Pegasus hero/lord(double lord might be good)/lv4 more than the dragon lord, especially if its not comp'd. Like I said with the forest dragon, you can hide him from the cannons pretty well if you use simple LOS (usually I will risk 1 shot of a cannon if I know he will be in combat the following turn or two shots if I have the charmed shield).
The final requirement for me is enough damage output. You can do this in three ways. As a rule I like re-rolls, therefore the sword of might/ogre/giant blade are the most straightforward. Secondly sword of anti heros is great fun. Usually you will be running into his biggest, meanest unit with the high points characters in. You can also go with a great weapon but this leaves you with a 2+ 4++ in combat (which still isn't bad) and a 1+ 2++, 4++ at range. The great weapon option is also good because you can fit in the other toys. OTS, charmed shield and 4++ together is 65 points, meaning that you can only get a sword of might or anti heros which isn't amazing. I would probably say the great weapon is better in the dark elf case and also cheaper. You can also reduce the wardsave to 5++ and fit in an ogre blade which is also viable.
EDIT: You can also forgo the charmed shield and have a 4++, ogre blade and OTS (thanks Phil Rossiter for pointing this one out).
To finally answer your question, a 1+ 3++ vs ranged weapons isn't needed and stops you from getting the other useful kit. The dragons movement and hiding it behind terrain in my experience is enough that you can go in with a 4++ (and a charmed shield if you are scared of multiple cannons). OTS is a more useful enchanted item than the cloak I think. Even a 2++ in combat is enough (using a GW) and you can probably risk a 5++ in some matchups (probably not at a tournament).
I would also make one final point about the list. If you can firstly choose a lore that can mitigate your damage on the dragon (life/beasts/heavens comet mind) then this will help synergy. Secondly if you can put elements in your list that can threaten cannons etc (shades, dark riders, harpies) then it makes the dragon more effective.
Last edited by henrypmiller on 11 Apr 2015, 16:16, edited 2 times in total.
I have never used the sisters. However on the face of things they look very strong. Although they have little or no save, you have to kill both in a single turn/phase (not sure on the wording) which is pretty difficult. If they are in combat they are still WS 6 and 2 wounds each. Usually if you are fighting infantry you will be being hit with around 8-11 attacks hitting on 4s wounding on 3s on average which is around 2/3 wounds. The opponent also has to allocate between them before the hits are decided which means that any randomness on the dice greatly improves the chance of their survival. Also, if they are hitting the sisters, the dragon will live longer. Against ranged attacks its even more impossible. Randomising shooting and magic hits makes it very difficult to kill them both in one turn. The only downside is that they are more vulnerable to cannon-fire because it hits all three at once (stupid mechanic).
Their ranged attacks are pretty good and they charge in with 6 ASF S5 -1 save which is great!
They actually hit harder than the glade lord and are more survivable against everything but a cannon. All for a hero choice and a fair price.
I agree with most of Henry's dragon analysis. I too feel Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield is the place to start from. I'd forego Charmed Shield and go Ogre Blade, 4++, OTS.
I quite like Cloak of Twilight, Dawnstone, Lance though. Obviously this is a character assassin build. I think extra overkill from the Cloak could actually be valuable as it deals with that first round break test issue. If the enemy are Steadfast they're probably infantry which means the dragon's Thunderstomp and (S4) breath weapon shouldn't need much help in round two. The danger is a first round champ challenge followed by one from a hard character in round two. Though I guess that means an expensive unit that the dragon will want support in dealing with anyway.
4++, Ogre blade, OTS is 110 points...Hence why perhaps 4++ OTS, Charmed shield, Great Weapon might be a good option.
But I can see the value of the cloak in this way. Dawnstone would be a great way of giving you an extra line of defence. Is the cloak an enchanted item? And can you fit in an Ogre blade with the two?
Last edited by henrypmiller on 11 Apr 2015, 16:09, edited 1 time in total.
I have never used the sisters. However on the face of things they look very strong. Although they have little or no save, you have to kill both in a single turn/phase (not sure on the wording) which is pretty difficult. If they are in combat they are still WS 6 and 2 wounds each. Usually if you are fighting infantry you will be being hit with around 8-11 attacks hitting on 4s wounding on 3s on average which is around 2/3 wounds. The opponent also has to allocate between them before the hits are decided which means that any randomness on the dice greatly improves the chance of their survival. Also, if they are hitting the sisters, the dragon will live longer. Against ranged attacks its even more impossible. Randomising shooting and magic hits makes it very difficult to kill them both in one turn. The only downside is that they are more vulnerable to cannon-fire because it hits all three at once (stupid mechanic).
Their ranged attacks are pretty good and they charge in with 6 ASF S5 -1 save which is great!
They actually hit harder than the glade lord and are more survivable against everything but a cannon. All for a hero choice and a fair price.
They regen every phase I think. And one of them has +1 to wound to order, the other to destruction.. which is pretty major really in wounding: you'll always have 3 attack which wound on 5+. Against T3 warlocks I was wounding on 2+.
In my game I was very happy with them. It's 500 points that are hard to kill. I don't think I'll be putting a lord on a dragon, naked he's only 50 points cheaper than the sisters fully kitted, he has a wound less and 2 attack less. His +1 WS isn't all that important. With 3 of the sisters attacks having +1 to wound they'll be wounding reasonably well against most things. They lack a real armor save modifier ofcourse.. on the charge only -3 (In my game I forgot they had a spear though).
A fully kitted lord will be 50 points more and probably worse in most situations (certainly in shooting but probably in most options of melee combat and survivability too except in a few cases), the dragon is impetous though.
I'd not risk 2 cannon shots though with any dragon even with the charmed shield.. the ward doesn't work for the dragon right?
Anyway I'd never use a glade lord really... not for anything. If I want a dragon I'll take the sisters and if I need more hitting power my next go to guy would probably Durthu if I played a game so large I could fit it all next to a level 4.
Last edited by Aezeal on 11 Apr 2015, 16:12, edited 1 time in total.
@Aezeal I agree with you that the sisters are better than the glade lord.
You are right, I was forgetting that the charmed shield is only on the rider. Probably wouldn't risk two then. Unless he rolls a 1 to wound on the first one
@Phil Rossiter
My bad! You are right. That is probably a pretty decent build then!
Cloak plus Dawnstone is 75pts, hence the lance, to capitalise on the first round bonuses. Charmed Shield too I guess. It's like the HE Star Lance build, though sadly you can't fit the shard as well.
I've been playing around with ideas with MR to help the dragon out vs Banishment, Searing Doom, Gateway etc but I can't see anything awesome.
Rulebook FAQ, pg 5:
"Is a model considered to be in base contact with itself?"
Ok thx. BTW I'd rather have the sister than a DE lord on dragon either.. basicly they are better than those unless you really need to kill a high armored and ward saved character.... and even then their shooting might be usefull... at least they could be flying circles around anyone so they can't be charged and just keep shooting.
In a unit of sisters I assume?