2,000 points of shooty arrowy d'eath

[Bitey]

Been tinkering with a shooty wood elf list and would appreciate some input. The basic rationale is lots and lots of arrows with magic, manoeuvrability and some stubborn eternal guard to slow/ intercept any enemy combat units before they can reach my archers. In terms of magic lores, several seem good- high, death, (metal and fire seem too unwood-elfy' for me to take) and in the end I went for Shadow on my weaver- withering would obviously be great for all my archers whilst melkoth's can slow advancing enemy units and it has a powerful nukes with decent range in pendulum and pit of shades. all the spells have quite high casting values so it seems to make sense to take this with my level 4. Then i took heavens on the singer because again there is a handy signature which makes a unit more likely to break from a 25% panic test and all the other spells seem useful so it wont matter too much what i roll. Curse of anraheir on the sisters will also be incredibley useful in making my opponent think twice before moving key units too

Level 4 Spell Weaver (lore of Shadow) powerstine, longbow

Level 2 Spellsinger (lore of heavens) unicorn, channeling staff

BSB- Hail of Doom arrow, enchanted shield

Waystalker- Bow of Loren

11 Gladeguard- full command, hagbane tips

11 gladeguard- musician

6 Glade riders- musician

16 eternal guard- full command

9 sisters of the thorn, full command, gleaming pennant

8 deepwood scouts, champion, musician

6 deepwood scouts

6 waywatchers- sentinel

Now as ever when I make lists, I find I go over on points (in this case I think it was 300-odd!) so in my efforts to cut it down to 2,000, quite a lot has had to go- units are all smaller, the eagle which would have been so handy for charge redirecting/ restricting marches is gone and my mages have little in the way of items...

I have a feeling that this points squeeze may be to such an extent that i need to rework the list- there are only so many little cuts you can make before you find yourself with units that arent really capable of fulfilling the purpose you had intended for them- the eternal guard for example seem such a weak link with only 3 ranks and no real combat buffs besides the chance of rolling up okkam's mindrazor, that they might well be better replaced by another unit of glade guard.
Other alternatives include cutting the Sisters of the Thorn down to 5 or 6- they aren't really being used as a full blown unkillable wizard bus and whilst i like the idea of +1 to cast from an extra rank it doubt its really that necessary (and of course I'd only be encouraging GW's brazen marketing 'look at this super sweet special rule- all you need to do to take advantage of it is buy another box of models from us!)

Or there is always the simplest option of all: just make this a 2,500 point list...

The waystalker feels a bit gimmicky and my brother is convinced he's massively overpriced but he should be fun to use and I fancy giving it a go, the spellweaver will go with the larger unit of scouts, so I'll have to be cautious with their deployment as they'll need to be close enough that the spellweaver can march to join them in turn 1.

[Phil Rossiter]

The lvl4 looks fine to me except I'd add the Moonstone as an escape route. If sticking with the Unicorn I'd get a 4+ Ward in vs war machines. I feel you need a Dispel Scroll somewhere though.

A good argument is needed for not taking Enchanted Arrows where you can IMHO. I'd be tempted to merge the Core archers into a single unit with Trueflight (generally useful). This is safer than small units for keeping characters in. Similarly, I'd take fewer Scouts but add Hagbane. You can redirect with them if necessary.

Good as Sisters are, I can't help think 2 x 5 Wild Riders are a more pressing need here. Just so the enemy can't rush forwards with impunity.

[Aezeal]

Some points (which turn your army into my army):
1. save 10 points on the WW sentinal (real waste of points).

2. remove champion and standard from the 1st GG unit (another real waste of points which should have been cut long ago).

now for my more personal touches:

3. Personally I use 5 man units of WD as the speedbumps for my army. 2 units of these can tie up more 2 units at once which is more than 1 unit of EG can (obviously not as long though, but if they survive 1 round so the enemy can't overrun it means after the next fight where the WD do die you can shoot at that unit again. Also point 12. ). You yourself mention the EG might not be able to do what your really want them to do anyway so better be save and have WD do what they can (and dying as you now they will) instead of EG failing to do what you hope them to do and ruin your plans).

4. Also not sure if the BSB is really worth it in a shooty army like this: I don't use him.
5. I don't use the waystalker myself, pretty sure you really don't want to delete him or you would have though... (you want to try him out... fine.. after trying out and finding out he's not usefull except against certain armies... delete).

3-4-5 are needed for:
6. WARHAWKS: Removing EG for smaller units of WD and removing the BSB/ waystalker would give you the option of getting some warhawks (probably 2 units of 3) which IMHO give you a lot of options, they have bows (still fitting the theme , though a bit expensive just to use for that) and they are also higher S on the charge than EG, more manouverable, still reasonably cheap so IF needed you could get them back from the enemy deployment zone (where they will probably be in turn 1-2) and use them as speedbumps if it's really important otherwise they just do regular machine hunting, archer harrassing and rear charging. Against a shooty army you don't have much to annoy his archers with while your archers deal with his machines, monsters etc so IMHO WH are really a good pick. They would also full fill a similar role as the GR (more wounds in each of the 2 units, more hitting power in melee) so you could delete that unit too.

7.I would certainly get some sort of magic Arrow on the 2nd unit of GG (TF?).

8. I would certainly get HB on both scout units.

9. remove musician AND champion from the 1st scout unit.

10. Think about dispell scroll

11. remove musicians from both GG units (I know I know.. controversial... but IMHO they aren't needed).

12. consider WR instead of sisters (keep them back and just charge anything the WD (or EG if you insist on keeping those) can keep in a fight for more than 1 round.

13. If you are wise (ahem) and do 1-6 you will probably have room for more GG.

14. depending on your meta you might want less scouts and more WW (will they bring more armor or more monster/warmachines).

[Bitey]

The lvl4 looks fine to me except I'd add the Moonstone as an escape route. If sticking with the Unicorn I'd get a 4+ Ward in vs war machines. I feel you need a Dispel Scroll somewhere though.

A good argument is needed for not taking Enchanted Arrows where you can IMHO. I'd be tempted to merge the Core archers into a single unit with Trueflight (generally useful). This is safer than small units for keeping characters in. Similarly, I'd take fewer Scouts but add Hagbane. You can redirect with them if necessary.

Good as Sisters are, I can't help think 2 x 5 Wild Riders are a more pressing need here. Just so the enemy can't rush forwards with impunity.

Some points (which turn your army into my army):
1. save 10 points on the WW sentinal (real waste of points).

2. remove champion and standard from the 1st GG unit (another real waste of points which should have been cut long ago).

now for my more personal touches:

3. Personally I use 5 man units of WD as the speedbumps for my army. 2 units of these can tie up more 2 units at once which is more than 1 unit of EG can (obviously not as long though, but if they survive 1 round so the enemy can't overrun it means after the next fight where the WD do die you can shoot at that unit again. Also point 12. ). You yourself mention the EG might not be able to do what your really want them to do anyway so better be save and have WD do what they can (and dying as you now they will) instead of EG failing to do what you hope them to do and ruin your plans).

4. Also not sure if the BSB is really worth it in a shooty army like this: I don't use him.
5. I don't use the waystalker myself, pretty sure you really don't want to delete him or you would have though... (you want to try him out... fine.. after trying out and finding out he's not usefull except against certain armies... delete).

3-4-5 are needed for:
6. WARHAWKS: Removing EG for smaller units of WD and removing the BSB/ waystalker would give you the option of getting some warhawks (probably 2 units of 3) which IMHO give you a lot of options, they have bows (still fitting the theme , though a bit expensive just to use for that) and they are also higher S on the charge than EG, more manouverable, still reasonably cheap so IF needed you could get them back from the enemy deployment zone (where they will probably be in turn 1-2) and use them as speedbumps if it's really important otherwise they just do regular machine hunting, archer harrassing and rear charging. Against a shooty army you don't have much to annoy his archers with while your archers deal with his machines, monsters etc so IMHO WH are really a good pick. They would also full fill a similar role as the GR (more wounds in each of the 2 units, more hitting power in melee) so you could delete that unit too.

7.I would certainly get some sort of magic Arrow on the 2nd unit of GG (TF?).

8. I would certainly get HB on both scout units.

9. remove musician AND champion from the 1st scout unit.

10. Think about dispell scroll

11. remove musicians from both GG units (I know I know.. controversial... but IMHO they aren't needed).

12. consider WR instead of sisters (keep them back and just charge anything the WD (or EG if you insist on keeping those) can keep in a fight for more than 1 round.

13. If you are wise (ahem) and do 1-6 you will probably have room for more GG.

14. depending on your meta you might want less scouts and more WW (will they bring more armor or more monster/warmachines).

Thanks for the responses, some good points, most of which I agree with.

I like the moonstone very much for the tactical possibilties it opens up but I feel that it really isnt that reliable if you dont know how many woods you will have at your disposal. The only way i can really seeing it being a dependable option is in a high points game where you can get the acorn as well and have a bunch of different woods to jump between....

On the topic of enchanted arrows, i'd be interested in what others with more experience have found but it seems to me that hagbane are by far the best choice there is, being the cheapest and the only arrow with an effect that will always be beneficial- trueflight, you may be hitting at full BS anyway, arcane bodkins do nothing against targets with no armour, star/moonfire can do nothing at all in many cases etc etc. Whereas auto wounding on a 6 to hit, overlooking how insanely good that is against high-toughness models is always going to boost your damage output...

I agree that Wild Riders make a lot of sense in a list like this and I would like to fit them in, if I do make this 2,500 i'd definitely add in an unit, I like the sisters because of how useful curse of anraheir will be and as a good parent unit for a mage, as well as fitting the skirmishy/ shooting theme

The reason I have champions in some of the units is basically to protect the weedy characters I'll have leading them from being singled out in challenges, I realise that 10 points for +1 bs is not remotely worth it, but 10 points to keep a bsb/ level 4 mage alive for an extra turn may be... or at least that was the thinking, truth to tell if they do get caught in combat they're probably done for anyway so it may not be worth it any case...

Warhawk riders would indeed fit this list well, but the problem is I simply dont have the models so unfortunately thats not an option.

The Wardancers as sacrificial unit seems a bit odd to me, besides skewwing the points allocation away from core to special (which is why the core Eternal guard are handy) it seems you'd have to get very lucky to last more than a single round of combat with any half decent ranked up unit- you'd be starting at -5 or so combat resolution (i guess you dance the woven mist for a 3+ward? or try to cancel ranks?). I reckon the vast majority of the time you'd just be giving a free overrun move to the enemy, defeating the one purpose you took the unit for! It seems an eagle is a far better, more manouevrable tool for this job, making it easier to position the overrun so that it takes the enemy away from your key units and costing fewer points.

The BSB, well I thought the same- wasnt sure if I needed him or not, but 25 points seemed reasonable especially when I only have a ld 9 general and most of my units are ld 8 without ranks/ steadfast etc losing my archer units to a failed panic test would be an avoidable annoyance. That said I agree this is potentially soewhere i could free up points.

why particularly would you recommend hagbane on scouts and trueflight on Glade Guard?- in most of my games my GG are fairly static and whilst they'll also be firing at long range I have enough shooting spread around the army that I can concentrate their fire on the units that are easiest to damage, so paying 3 (or is it 4?) points per model to hit on a 3's rather than 4's doesnt really seem worth it to me...

This leads me on to why I definitely want to keep the musicians though- one of the key reasons scouts are so much better than GG is because of their greater flexibility with firing arcs and picking targets as skirmishers, I dont want to be in a position where a unit of fast cavalry has made it onto the flank of one of my Glade guard units and I can't make a free-reform to shoot them in the same turn.

[Phil Rossiter]

In the tournaments I play it's usual to get a couple of woods. Add the free one and Moonstone works very well. If you're not likely to get those woods then leave it out I guess.

Trueflight is good because it's very common to shoot at skirmishers, troops behind woods, other troops or in buildings, or those fast cav you've just Swift Reformed to target. Picture trying to shoot Shades out of a building for example.

In general the point of varying arrows is for all-comers. You may be getting no particular benefit (though 30" AP remains excellent) from Starfire vs High Elves but against WoC it could be critical.

Hagbane is generally favoured on Scouts because you can shoot war machines off quicker that way.

[Bitey]

In the tournaments I play it's usual to get a couple of woods. Add the free one and Moonstone works very well. If you're not likely to get those woods then leave it out I guess.

Trueflight is good because it's very common to shoot at skirmishers, troops behind woods, other troops or in buildings, or those fast cav you've just Swift Reformed to target. Picture trying to shoot Shades out of a building for example.

In general the point of varying arrows is for all-comers. You may be getting no particular benefit (though 30" AP remains excellent) from Starfire vs High Elves but against WoC it could be critical.

Hagbane is generally favoured on Scouts because you can shoot war machines off quicker that way.

I guess I can see the potential in trueflight- if anywhere, I tend to take them on glade riders since I figure they'll be on the move most of the time but my planned approach is to deal with any hard to hit units like shades with magic, or potentially even a charge from the sisters of the thorn... whilst my glade guard in particular focus on the targets they will be most effective against ie in the open, unobscured etc; and the scouting units can also be deployed to maximise the effectiveness of their shooting- getting into short range but out of charge arcs and with clear line of sight etc.

Ah yes and of course i hadnt thought of the 'obvious' effect shooting poisoned arrows at inanimate wood and iron would have! (me and my brother, who I mainly play against, houserule that hits are randomised between warmachines and crew so I'd overlooked this)

But with regards to the possible benefits of starfire- I'm still not convinced. would not hagbane just be straight out better for 1 pt cheaper?
Hagbane auto wound on 1/6 of the time from the larger to hit dice pool against everything (in fact are there any units that are immune to poison?- i feel there probably should be but if warmachines arent then I dont know what should!)
Starfire wound 1/6 times more from the smaller to wound pool after misses have been removed against only certain enemies (and of course are flaming which can be very useful)

In terms of simple damage efficiency, hagbane seem some way ahead...

[Phil Rossiter]

In my combat list I have 20 Hagbane, a unit of Waywatchers and some Starfire. I feel the Hagbane are necessary to deal with flyers especially. The Starfire are there because when a Chimaera comes at you, the Hagbane will only take it down if something else removes the Regen first.

But the shooty lists of strong players tend to have Trueflight Core and Hagbane Scouts for the reasons given. Shot volume deals with the Regen.

[NonnoSte]

Shots volume or a small unit of flaming Sisters.
They have an actual range of 30" but the mobility means that you can fire at targets you usually don't see at all. Then hagbane/trueflight can finish the job.

[Bitey]

Shots volume or a small unit of flaming Sisters.
They have an actual range of 30" but the mobility means that you can fire at targets you usually don't see at all. Then hagbane/trueflight can finish the job.

One potential issue I can see with equipping sisters like that is that it can push them into dual conflicting roles, if as I do, you have a mage accompanying them. On the one hand you as you say have a very mobile unit that can take regeneration off something from 30" away but on the other you have an expensive and important unit that you may well want to keep closer to your own battle line to cast augments etc or to avoid putting into too much danger by marching half way across the board...

It seems having flaming attacks on a long-ranged archer unit is a safer bet...

[Phil Rossiter]

Take two units of Sisters?

[NonnoSte]

Take two units of Sisters?

Just try them.
You'll be surprised to find out how easy is to keep them out of danger even approaching the enemy lines.
Consider that you don't have to deploy your mage with them any match, regardless of what you're facing.

If you're facing regenerating threats, you can have your Weaver starting the match with other units (even infantry, if there are not dangerous war machines or if you can stay out of harm) and join them once the regen threat is dealt with.

I'm getting used to have a unit of 5 of them with the banner and use them as a launching pad for an early flaming HoDA from my BSB.
Lately in the match thay can pick up my Weaver and accompany her around safely.

[UKlvrBM]

Trueflight on your "static" GG unit for this reason: You are 30 inches away, shooting through your units, his units, trees and at skirmishers. You are hitting on 3s. That's crazy, insane, beyond ridiculously awesome.

Hagbane on scouts for this reason: You are generally hunting high toughness warmachines or monsters. By their nature, you should be at close range and not cover between you and your target (unless you wanted it). This means you are hitting on 4s regularly and auto-wounding on 6s.

[nXken]

Static gg + star/moonfire arrows:
30" flaming attacks... Hitting on 4+...
Hi there cavalry

Bazinga!