Thoughts on Treemen Ancient

[Polycotton]

I recently broke out my old Durthu model against my High Elf opponent to give the Treemen Ancient another burl. The reason I was attracted to him was that he fills two roles in the army at a decent price. You get a Treemen who isn't quite as good at putting out damage but he has an extra wound and you get a very resilient level 4 wizard to dispel with for an extra 135pts into the bargain.

I hate the magic phase, when you do really well or really poorly there is no real sense of accomplishment as essentially you happened to get lucky on a bunch of dice. All I really want to do is dispel and if I get some spells of then great. If I fail in the magic phase I can still use my Treemen Ancient to tie up some large enemy unit that doesn't have any scary high strength attacks.

The other factor that made me re-consider using him was that Life magic actually syncs up nicely with my HtH heavy all comers list that I use against my regular group of mates. Dwellers gives me a way to deal with 3+ ward save Phoenix Guard and Ogres and is also pretty sweet at taking large chunks from massive Orc and Skaven units. Throne of Vines can really let you relax and not panic about your Treemen ending up in a black void and Stone Skin and Regrowth are really useful in my list which features mostly combat units. The damaging spells are ok and become great with Throne of Vines up. Earthblood kinda stinks, especially as your Ancient can't join a unit.
I'm sure the fact that he can only use Life magic is a big problem for many Wood Elf generals as the lore simply doesn't sync up with what their list is doing. As for me, I run Eternal Guard, Warhawks, 2x Wild Riders, Psuedo combat Sisters with a standard and a BSB with Armour of Silvered steel. The Lore of Life is also fantastic at healing and buffing the ancient himself which allows him to tie up units all day. The 18" leadership bubble was also surprisingly useful.

What are other people's experiences using him other than dying to flaming cannons?

[Etheneus]

I have used my Ancient in my last few games and well, what they (you) say about them is true. Not much damage output but can hold an enemy in place for a long time. These are my conclusions after my games with him:

1. Life magic is great! He held a WoC demon prince in place for 9 rounds of combat so I could destroy most of the rest of his army thanks (mostly) to the attribute. Flesh to stone and regrowth did much for me also. Since many things can be cast on low dice you can almost always heal yourself.
2. You need a lv4 life. The lore is not good on a level 2 in my opinion since the signature isn't great and Shield of thorns and awakening isn't that good either and to have throne of vines on a lv2 is unnecessary. You could always keep the Ancient a lv2 and have an extra lv4 life but, well, not that cost effective.
3. BSB is essential. You don't want your lv4 stubborn ld10 monster to run away. A BSB helps a lot (not in my last game, first 5 and 6, then 6 and 6)
4. Don't forget thunderstomp! Against infantry it's great but it's so easy to forget.
5. Tree whack! I have taken 5 wounds of the demon prince mentioned above (Nurgle prince lv4 so he had like 7-9 wounds or something after getting boxcar in two of his magic phases) I have killed a stonehorn, made a ogre tyrant to go to the back rank for refusing a challenge and later killing him when the unit flees, killed a orc war boss, some champions and so on with it. If you can't get through the armor with the Ancients regular attacks, use tree whack, even if it's only on sixes they fail their test.
6. One more thing on life magic. Even if you don't like the magic phase, your enemy will dread it if you have dwellers. They are so afraid of it that they will charge anything into your ancient. Coven throne (that explodes and kills the ancient when destroyed) a demon prince (above) stonehorn (also mentioned above) a horde of skeletons (that you fight with for the rest of the game but it did it's job, I couldn't cast dwellers out of combat)

I think it will be some time till I stop using my ancient, I don't have a lot of canons in my group, and so far no flaming once.

[Syphilis]

I've been toying with using the ancient again. I keep it at level 3 as a balance to points and life magic wanting alvl 4 wielder. The ld 10 18 inch bubble has been amazing! I run a forest spirit/wild rider army with no Bsb. This might change.

[Phil Rossiter]

What are other people's experiences using him other than dying to flaming cannons?

This is of course the issue. Non-flaming cannon are also a problem. It's not that he becomes unusable, just that one lucky shot can undo a lot of good work. I took the Ancient to two tournaments. In the first he died all games except one. In the second I was more cautious and he only died once but achieved less.

I disagree on the magic phase. There's a lot of skill in what wizards to bring and also in how you cast and dispel. Yes the dice can scupper you but less often than people think if you plan carefully. Dwellers is indeed awesome, it pulls scrolls and dice like crazy. Throne very helpful as a utility cast, Flesh can turn combats. Life can be a bit limited vs some enemies but adding a second caster helps a lot.

He's almost never going to run if he's near a BSB. At times I would risk Ld10 Stubborn without the re-roll, it's only a 1-in-12 of failing, sometimes it's worth risking that to give you more flexibility. As said, he can tie stuff up all day and Tree Whack, Thunderstomp (I've used vs Warbeasts) or Savage Beast say let him kill things. I didn't use him as my general because while the 18" is great, he is easier to take down than an elf in a unit.

[Syphilis]

What did you use for the general?

[Phil Rossiter]

Stag Lord, rides with the BSB in Sisters.

[Polycotton]

I have used my Ancient in my last few games and well, what they (you) say about them is true. Not much damage output but can hold an enemy in place for a long time. These are my conclusions after my games with him:

1. Life magic is great! He held a WoC demon prince in place for 9 rounds of combat so I could destroy most of the rest of his army thanks (mostly) to the attribute. Flesh to stone and regrowth did much for me also. Since many things can be cast on low dice you can almost always heal yourself.

I have definitely come round to Life magic. It is so good for the bonus ability alone when running a Treemen Ancient. Dwellers is such an excellent offensive spell against virtually every army. Personally, Regrowth and Stone Skin are what get me excited about the lore in conjunction with my army.

3. BSB is essential. You don't want your lv4 stubborn ld10 monster to run away. A BSB helps a lot (not in my last game, first 5 and 6, then 6 and 6)

Wow. That is unlucky, like a 3% chance of failure with a BSB around. I always run a BSB for this reason, I want him to be absolutely rock solid so he can carry out his primary task of wasting your opponent's key unit's time.

4. Don't forget thunderstomp! Against infantry it's great but it's so easy to forget.

I forgot stomps for half a year before really remembering reliably. I am pretty good at remembering them now. Especially with the Ancient; as he doesn't have many attacks otherwise.

5. Tree whack! I have taken 5 wounds of the demon prince mentioned above (Nurgle prince lv4 so he had like 7-9 wounds or something after getting boxcar in two of his magic phases) I have killed a stonehorn, made a ogre tyrant to go to the back rank for refusing a challenge and later killing him when the unit flees, killed an orc war boss, some champions and so on with it. If you can't get through the armor with the Ancients regular attacks, use tree whack, even if it's only on sixes they fail their test.

I often umm and arr over using Treewack in some situations but I feel I need to use it more, especially in heavy armour situations.

I disagree on the magic phase. There's a lot of skill in what wizards to bring and also in how you cast and dispel. Yes the dice can scupper you but less often than people think if you plan carefully. Dwellers is indeed awesome, it pulls scrolls and dice like crazy. Throne very helpful as a utility cast, Flesh can turn combats. Life can be a bit limited vs some enemies but adding a second caster helps a lot.

There is indeed some skill in how you approach your spell casting, I'm more referring to the actual winds of magic rolls. If your opponent keeps rolling high and gets Fiery Convocation off on your fat unit of Eternal Guard and then you roll 3 for the winds of magic on your next two turns there isn't much you can really do. This is a specific example but it is how opponents must feel when on the receiving end of Purple Suns and the like. It's not like I outmaneuvered my opponent or really out-thought him. I got lucky and Irresistibly Cast a Purple Sun the length of his Ogre battleline which won me the game right there. In that same game when I got my Eternal Guard fried, I also lost 10 of 14 Glade Guard on my opponents first turn as well. They got caught in a Tempest. I was down a quarter of my army on my opponents first turn. The Eternal Guard ended up hiding all battle and survived due to diminishing returns of Fiery Convocation. I ended up dispelling it by crushing the mage who cast the spell with my Treemen.

I've been running a secondary caster for access to a dispel scroll and Death magic for forcing dispel scrolls and allowing me a chance to pick off enemy spell casters and remove the threat of their scary magic missiles.

[Phil Rossiter]

In all of the examples here, the armies have magic lores that are vicious against those enemies. Death is deadly against Ogres and a level 4 has a 90% chance of rolling Purple Sun. The player should of course bring both scroll and Hellheart but IF is a problem. He should keep a close eye on where the Death wizard deploys and try to counter his movement but it's difficult I agree. This is one of the reasons Ogres are no longer a strong army. Similarly, Dwellers is one of the few natural counters to Phoenix Guard. In an all-comers situation you have to get lucky to get those match-ups. For example, Dwellers is bad against Warriors of Chaos and shouldn't hurt Ogres much because the Gutstar should have Rune Maw.

High Magic is great against Wood Elves. The scroll helps. There is some argument about whether Eternal Guard are a good choice. A smallish unit comes from Core points so it's loss is bearable, although magic is more dangerous in low points games. A big unit should arguably have a character in with Magic Resistance. High Winds can hurt but the upside is you get five or six dispel dice and a decent shot at stopping Convocation. On a five v three phase say, that spell is going through unless you have a scroll. Even a three v two phase can be good if you just want to push through a key spell.

The other thing is that the more power dice you roll, the greater the chance of miscasting. If a High mage is the only caster the player risks vapourising his magic phase every time he reaches for those five Convocation dice.

[Mollesvinet]

I am playing around with an 8th list with 3 treemen ancients and a level 4 mage.

Personally I have reached the conclusion that treemen ancients just do a better job than regular treemen. They have that extra wound which is golden, another leadership, they are level 2 mages which gives channeling and healing (I don't have models to summon) and even though they have less attacks you get same thunderstomp against infantry. While they do have less WS and A, the treewhack will often do more damage especially when combined with miasma or word of pain.

They have less BS, so no strangling roots but you really want those treemen in combat anyway. Personally i don't like lvl 4 on treemen as it makes them a big target and of course there is the potential of them blowing themselves up if they cast too many spells.

[Phil Rossiter]

It's a difficult decision Thomas.

I feel the much improved magic is worth the level 4 upgrade. But if you're running three (!) you have the whole Lore anyway.

One issue is (surprisingly) getting ground down by powerful characters, WS4 can be a problem defensively.

[Mollesvinet]

Of course if the treeman ancient is your only mage, then upping him to level 4 might be worth the risk.


The plus side against characters is the ability to challenge. I engaged the troll king and about 6-8 trolls with a treeman ancient. Because of the challenge, the number of attacks was significantly reduced.

With a bit of healing and word of pain, the treeman ancient managed to treewhack the troll king after about 3-4 rounds of combat which resulted in all the trolls running away and getting run down.

While WS can be a problem, I would argue that self-healing, an extra wound and the ability to challenge makes up for it. It does cost more points though.

The extra wound also decreases the chance of getting one-shot by a cannon by 50% except against flaming cannons.

Just my two cents

[Phil Rossiter]

Challenge is good and I haven't used it enough. Surely he should have refused with Throgg and Vomited to get past your armour though? I had a solo combat vs a ScarVet where my guy was losing (WS4) but got Savage Beast off which turned the tables. Obviously not possible on a normal Treeman.

I came to the same conclusion (Ancient is better), though I feel Ld10 is the best advantage. You do pay 65 pts more though and I've had wins turn into draws because I lost all those points to cannon (obviously even more pronounced when you pay another 70 for level 4). With three you have target saturation but Daemons or Dwarfs look difficult then.

The wound and healing help in combat but I found I couldn't heal fast enough vs cannon (M5 takes an age to get into combat) and annoyingly, Regrowth doesn't work on characters.

London Calling has just decided it's playing AoS, huge blow. Any sign of other 8th tournaments in London Thomas?

[Mollesvinet]

Trogg can't refuse challenge as per chaos warriors rules. But even if he could, that would mean that his toughest character was doing nothing. Still a defensive boost. LD10 is huge as well, as you mention. No regrowth though, which is a bit of a bummer.

Don't know of any tournaments in London, I am going to Leicester for an 8th tournament in October. Haven't had much time for warhammer since I got my new job. Had to stop completely with the reports too

[Phil Rossiter]

Trogg can't refuse challenge as per chaos warriors rules. But even if he could, that would mean that his toughest character was doing nothing. Still a defensive boost. LD10 is huge as well, as you mention. No regrowth though, which is a bit of a bummer.

I always forget these things! In general I'd prefer the six vomits to Throgg's attacks but yes, getting him out of the way would be good. Maybe he should have hidden behind his unit!

I am going to Leicester for an 8th tournament in October.

I spotted this on TWF! I was hoping Stevie Boxall might run one at some point. There are plenty 8th events but too far for me sadly. Best option is Colchester (if it even has any spaces left) and that's 2 hrs plus on the M25.

[Polycotton]

I'm currently tossing up between two slightly different builds for an upcoming weekend of gaming with five other mates. One army has a TA and a second Treemen whilst the other looks more traditional with a L4 Shadow Weaver and Eternal Guard as the anvil unit. Against the opponents I will be playing the Treemen Ancient is superior due to the ability to challenge; this allows him to survive and tie up some nasty units that would otherwise murderise a regular Treemen.

This will be our final weekend of 8th edition. After this we will be playing Kings of War and trying some of the 9th edition internet based balanced changes. So far the magic item changes look perfect, the magic has some of the sting taken from it which is pleasing. The nerfing of the more overpowered units is welcome as is the buff to Forest Spirits bringing back their 5+ ward saves. It makes the whole army list viable again when combined with an increase in price for Wild Riders and magic arrows. I'm more humouring my mates when it comes to Warhammer now as I want to play Kings of War. The rules are fantastic and avoid so much time wasting and I can actually use my Dryad and Treekin models again because they are total boss in Kings of War.