AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back"

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AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back"

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

Time for some controversial rule interpretations, specifically from within the combat phase.

We now know that the alternating combats in AOS are a serious step-up in strategy for a gamesworkshop product. Some negative nancys out there will boo and hiss, :cry:
but from an objective perspective... initiative scores are much less strategic, static, and show that complexity is a poor substitute for plotting and scheming.

Now I present my first original strategy for Age of Sigmar:

Pull from the Front vs. Pull from the Back

Excerpt 1, under Picking Targets,
"...in order to attack an enemy unit, an enemy model from that unit must be in range of the attacking weapon..."
Excerpt 2, under under Making Attacks
"...Attacks can be made one at a time, or, in some cases, you can roll the dice for attacks together..."
Excerpt 3, sub-text under Making Attacks: 1.Hit Roll
"...if the roll equals... then it scores a hit and you must make a wound roll..."
Excerpt 4,Inflicting Damage,
"... the player commanding the target unit allocates any wounds that are inflicted to models from the unit as they see fit (the models do not have to be within range or visible to an attacking unit)... Place the slain model to one side - it is removed from play..."

These excerpts seem almost contradictory at first. The attacking player has to have models within weapon range, but the defending player can choose which of his models take damage? Why? The answer is not a simple one, despite the deceptively short amount of rules we are given. With my reasoning, these rules combine together to create two distinct defensive tactics.

The Pull from the Front Strategy
Alternating combat and 'piling in' introduces a unique new mechanic to defense in AOS; when you choose a unit to 'attack' with, they get to move each model within that unit up to 3" to maximize attacks. If a model makes this 'pile in' move, but cannot get an enemy model within 'weapon range', it cannot attack this turn.
So after the 'pile in', the attacking player measures how many of his models have an enemy model they can reach. This determines the amount of his attacks.

[*]Meanwhile the defending player measures how many of his models are within his opponent's range. If attacks can be made "one at a time", and attacking models must be within weapon range, it implies that attacks are (or can be) made from one model against another model.

[*]The amount of defending models within an attacking unit's (each individual model's) weapon-range determines how many models are vulnerable with the Pull from the Front defensive tactic. If, after save rolls have failed, the number of slain models is greater then then the number of models within the opponent's weapon-range, the defending player may choose to allocate wounds only to those models in enemy range, until none of the defending models are left within the attacking unit's weapon-range. At this point the defending player may ignore the remaining wounds dealt against him.

The Pull from the Back Strategy
[*]Alternatively, if the defending unit wishes to protect it's champion (or any other specific model), or is defending with a 'horde' sized unit and wishes to maximize counter attacks, the defender may opt to Pull from the Back instead. This ensures that when the defending player makes his 3" 'pile in' maneuver, he will have the most models within 'weapon range' possible to him, and therefore have the strongest hitting counter-attack possible to him.

In summery, each tactic has its pros and cons.
Pulling from the Back means the defending unit will take the full amount of wounds it receives from the attacking unit, but it can protect it's command, and will have the strongest possible counter attack.

Pulling from the Front means the defending unit can limit the amount of damage the attacker can do, but results in a weakened counter-attack when it is selected.
Last edited by Nicholas Nitro on 09 Jul 2015, 06:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Hyarion »

Based on "(the models do not have to be within range or visible to an attacking unit)."

I don't think it matters as long as you were in range at the start of the combat phase. I think the question behind your question is 1) Do models attack collectively (all at the same time) like in WHFB? or 2) Do models attack individually (like in LOTR SBG)?
From the rules as written, I believe it is the former.

Great insight into the game. Hopefully AoS continues to reveal this kind of depth.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Rob451 »

Models don't have to be in range for wounds to be assigned. The range only matters for being eligible to make attacks. Once you have determined that a model may attack (which is done all at once when you declare that unit is attacking) everything that comes after doesn't matter. X wounds are caused resulting in Y Damage which means you remove Z models. Range, line of sight and anything else is not a factor in which models are removed.

Pull from the front therefore does not result in less models being removed as casualties and is only useful if you plan to retreat in your next turn.

Pull from the back is the default method but the best method is "Pull from combats that haven't occurred yet".

3" is a long way and it's very easy to ensure that your battle-line is constructed in a way that regardless of which unit your opponent charges you can have 2 or more units ready to pile in and support them. In this particular instance if your opponent attacks the unit they charged the optimal sequence of events is thus:

Opponent Attacks Unit they Charged. You remove from the back.
You attack with Supporting Unit A. They remove models near Supporting Unit B to increase pile in distances.
You attack with Supporting Unit B. They remove models near the Charged Unit.
Finally you attack with the Charged Unit who has already lost models.

There is never a reason to attack with a unit that is not in danger of losing more models this combat phase until the end of the phase. Whoever your opponent attacks first has already suffered their casualties and you should be maximizing the damage you do with your fresh supporting units.

In AoS it is never an advantage to charge. The randomness associated with the charge range means you can't guarantee who will make it into combat. It's far more advantageous to receive a charge as you have control over your formation and supporting units even though you will be attacking second.

This is why your front line should be a SINGLE WEAK UNIT stretched thin around / in front of your army. When the enemy charges this unit (it being the only unit they CAN charge) you remove models such that it allows your heavy hitting high damage models to pile in to the combat.

From a Wood Elf point of view you want Glade Guard supported by Tree kin, Treemen, Warhawk Riders (they can pile in over your models) and Dryads.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

Hyarion wrote:... I think the question behind your question is 1) Do models attack collectively (all at the same time) like in WHFB? or 2) Do models attack individually (like in LOTR SBG)?
From the rules as written, I believe it is the former...
I'm saying that it is both, at the defending player's discretion.
Rob451 wrote:...Models don't have to be in range for wounds to be assigned. The range only matters for being eligible to make attacks...
I am saying that the defender may choose to take attacks one at a time(and pull slain models from the front) until that defending player's models are eventually no longer in enemy weapon range. This would nullify additional attacks from models that were in range at pile-in, because they wouldn't still be in range when it became there turn to roll attacks.

Alternatively, the defending player can take slain models from the back if he feels that benefits him. You can also choose to open pockets in your line for other units to pile-in through(like Rob451 is talking about), or pull models from the front until you are far enough away to charge next turn. It's totally up to the defending player to decide which tactic is most beneficial to him.

In civilized societies we write laws to determine the rules under which we live by. Sometimes our laws can seem contradictory as well, but they usually have subtle to serious differences in situation that set them apart. Kind of like how Abortion is legal, but assaulting a pregnant woman is murder/attempted murder. The legality and illegality of one example has no effect whatsoever on the legality/illegality of the other, even though both examples share the same topic(the well being of the fetus).

The language of the rules leads me to believe that pulling from the front and pulling from the back are both legal and fair game mechanics, because both techniques are situational and both come with pros and cons.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Duraska »

Rob451 wrote: In AoS it is never an advantage to charge. The randomness associated with the charge range means you can't guarantee who will make it into combat. It's far more advantageous to receive a charge as you have control over your formation and supporting units even though you will be attacking second.
I agree with pretty much all of what you said, but i don't agree with this one line. A lot of units (even some Wood Elf units) get special rules that apply only on a combat turn where they charged. I do agree however that you need to carefully consider the unit that you're charging, and sometimes it may make sense not to charge.

The more I think about AoS, the more complex I find it to be. I was originally really convinced it was the death of fantasy Warhammer, but after playing it, and thinking of tactics, I'm not so sure anymore. It is very different than 8th, but i don't think it's any less tactical.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by EtherDude »

Regarding pulling models, I don't know if you're going to be able to limit attacks from the initial attacking unit. I.e. iron guts hitting dryads, iron guts will get their full attacks, regardless of where things get pulled from.

HOWEVER

This changes when you have multiple units in combat. Say you have a character charging on one flank and a charging unit to the front hitting a mob of defending models. Say the charging unit hits first. It kills buckets of dudes. The defending player pulls the models from the side where the character is. The character is now 3" + weapon range away from the defending unit. The defenders cannot attack him, but his big nasty attacks are out of range as well, denying him the ability to contribute to the fight.

Kinda interesting to think about IMO. If someone can check rules to see if I'm wrong I'd totally accept it since I may have missed an important sentence.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Duraska »

EtherDude wrote:Regarding pulling models, I don't know if you're going to be able to limit attacks from the initial attacking unit. I.e. iron guts hitting dryads, iron guts will get their full attacks, regardless of where things get pulled from.

HOWEVER

This changes when you have multiple units in combat. Say you have a character charging on one flank and a charging unit to the front hitting a mob of defending models. Say the charging unit hits first. It kills buckets of dudes. The defending player pulls the models from the side where the character is. The character is now 3" + weapon range away from the defending unit. The defenders cannot attack him, but his big nasty attacks are out of range as well, denying him the ability to contribute to the fight.

Kinda interesting to think about IMO. If someone can check rules to see if I'm wrong I'd totally accept it since I may have missed an important sentence.
For the character to have successfully completed his charge, he would have had to end the charge within 0.5" of an enemy model in the unit. If that model is taken away as a casualty, and it was the closest model to that character, then IF there is another model in the unit that is within 3" + whatever the range of the character's weapon is (2" for a spear, for example), then the character model could pile-in towards the closest enemy model up to 3", still allowing him to attack. Note: I realized most people at my GW store play this wrong, they assume pile in is a free 3" movement before attack, but it's actually just achance for a model to move up to 3" directly toward the closest enemy model. You cannot pile-in 3" towards a different model that is not the closest model to him (to wrap around the flank for example).

However, the only reason the above scenerio works is due to a line in the Combat rules: "Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase." In the above scenerio the character unit charged, but then due to casualties ended up more than 3" away. Since he charged, he can still pile-in towards a different model, and attack as long as he gets into weapon range. However if this is a combat phase where the character did not charge (for example, say it was the following combat phase), then the character would now be more than 3" away from any enemy model, and therefore not able to attack in the combat phase this round. In this next player round the character could be moved normally (wouldnt need to retreat) or he could even charge again, since to charge your must be more than 3" from any enemy model.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Hyarion »

This changes when you have multiple units in combat. Say you have a character charging on one flank and a charging unit to the front hitting a mob of defending models. Say the charging unit hits first. It kills buckets of dudes. The defending player pulls the models from the side where the character is. The character is now 3" + weapon range away from the defending unit. The defenders cannot attack him, but his big nasty attacks are out of range as well, denying him the ability to contribute to the fight.
Agreed, if you selectively remove models so that an enemy unit (from a different warscroll) that was in range of your units so that it can no longer attack, that is fine.
SRB wrote: (the models do not have to be within range or visible to an attacking unit).
I believe the inclusion of the word range there is an oversight and while it might apply to allocating wounds due to shooting (where half of a unit may be behind a building), in close combat, to remove a model such that an enemy attacker is no longer in combat is against RAI (although not, I admit, RAW) and against the spirit of the game. If you are going to roll all attacking dice together, then it hardly matters because all models that can attack, will attack. If an opponent chooses to roll dice for individual models (like in LOTR) then (like in LOTR) casualties should be applied to models that attacker could have legitimately attacked instead of a hypothetical model on the other side of the defending unit.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Duraska »

Hyarion wrote:

I believe the inclusion of the word range there is an oversight and while it might apply to allocating wounds due to shooting (where half of a unit may be behind a building), in close combat, to remove a model such that an enemy attacker is no longer in combat is against RAI (although not, I admit, RAW) and against the spirit of the game. If you are going to roll all attacking dice together, then it hardly matters because all models that can attack, will attack. If an opponent chooses to roll dice for individual models (like in LOTR) then (like in LOTR) casualties should be applied to models that attacker could have legitimately attacked instead of a hypothetical model on the other side of the defending unit.

Yup, one thing to keep in mind is that damage is not actually applied to a unit until all attacks against it from the unit that is attacking are complete. So even if removing one model would prevent the other models in the attacking unit from attacking, they still get to because that one model won't be removed due to wounds lost until all the attacks are done.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Hyarion »

I completely spaced that, Duraska, well spotted indeed.
SRB wrote: After all the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, the player commanding the target units allocates any wounds...
So roll all hits/wounds/saves for all attacks keeping track of the number of wounds generated and *then* models are removed.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

Yup, one thing to keep in mind is that damage is not actually applied to a unit until all attacks against it from the unit that is attacking are complete....
That's how it used to work, check under Making Attacks, they provide the attack sequence for making attacks one at a time.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Hyarion »

I'm not sure what you mean by "used to work", I'm quoting from the Inflicting Damage section of the new rules. Unless there has already been a revision of the rules?

But under the Determine Damage section under Making Attacks it says "Once all of of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out...." that doesn't speak to wound allocation which doesn't happen until the Inflicting Damage section, no? Were you referring to a different part of the Determine Damage section?

I would interpret the word unit above to mean a squad, not an individual model. I'm guessing you read it the opposite way?

As I read the Determine Damage section, all I see is rules about determining the total number of wounds inflicted like for weapons that inflict multiple wounds or d6 wounds, but not yet removing casualties.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

They give you examples for both. Making all your attacks at once used to be mandatory (8th edition), but now you 'can' choose to play that way. If you make all your attacks one at a time(basically treating every model similarly to a hero), then you make each individual hit,wound, and subsequent save rolls in sequence. In this case, after a failed wound roll, "...you must determine damage on the target unit."

So the game provides the option to attack one at a time or all at once. The purpose behind my "measuring every defending model within enemy weapon range" is to quickly determine how many defending models are threatened, so as to speed up that process while maintaining the same result as if you had attacked one at a time.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Duraska »

Nicholas Nitro wrote:They give you examples for both. Making all your attacks at once used to be mandatory (8th edition), but now you 'can' choose to play that way. If you make all your attacks one at a time(basically treating every model similarly to a hero), then you make each individual hit,wound, and subsequent save rolls in sequence. In this case, after a failed wound roll, "...you must determine damage on the target unit."

So the game provides the option to attack one at a time or all at once. The purpose behind my "measuring every defending model within enemy weapon range" is to quickly determine how many defending models are threatened, so as to speed up that process while maintaining the same result as if you had attacked one at a time.
Not quite. Apologies if I'm misunderstanding you.

In the rules they do say you can choose to roll all your attacks at once, or do them one at a time, you're right, but the end result is the same. You do the actual assigning of wounds in the next section called "Inflicting Damage," which starts with the following quote:

AŽfter all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, the player commanding the target unit allocates any wounds that are in‘flicted to models from the unit as they see fit (the models do not have to be within range or visible to an attacking unit).

So, yes, you can roll each to-hit/to-wound/save-roll seperately, keeping track of how many wounds get through - but you still don't attribute the actual wounds to a model until "[a]fter all of the attacks by a unit have been carried out." At that point, that is when you start removing models from play.

Again, apologies if I'm misunderstanding you, and if that's not what you're trying to say!
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

You almost have it, but you're still mixing the rules that explain the two options.
You are correct, UNDER 4. Determine Damage, it says, "...once all the attacks made by a unit have been carried out..."
However, we have already established that we are going with the 'one attack at a time' option, and at the end of 3. Save Roll it says, "...if...the attack is successful, you must determine damage on the target unit."

The difference is subtle, but at this point we've already chosen the "one attack at a time" option, so when a defending player fails a save roll, we "...must determine damage..." Even though 4. Determine Damage says "unit", we've already forsaken that option to do make attacks "one at a time".

Does that make more sense? The rules cannot contradict each other. As such, we get to choose how we do our attacks and damage, so it might as well be up to the defender to pick the most advantageous option.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Duraska »

Determining damage is different than Inflicting damage.

I would say this though, just talk to your meta about it and have everyone agree on what they want to do. The way i explained it in my last post is how we're doing in my meta. GW is notorious for writing confusing rules because they don't truly standardize their language, so I'd just talk it over with your friends and agree on how you want to do it.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

Let me try another example.
The eternal guard have the "glade shield" special rule. Re-roll 1s on save rolls. If I cast "mystic shield" on them, I can add 1 to save rolls, but I don't lose the "glade shield" ability to re-roll 1s because I don't have to add 1 to my roll. The option to make all your attacks at once doesn't remove the option to make your attacks one at a time. The rules don't contradict each other.

If you want to make your attacks one at a time, you follow the four step sequence and then the defending player follows the 'inflict damage' rule. Yes it says 'unit' because you can attack as a unit, but it doesn't mean you have to.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Duraska »

Nicholas Nitro wrote:Let me try another example.
The eternal guard have the "glade shield" special rule. Re-roll 1s on save rolls. If I cast "mystic shield" on them, I can add 1 to save rolls, but I don't lose the "glade shield" ability to re-roll 1s because I don't have to add 1 to my roll. The option to make all your attacks at once doesn't remove the option to make your attacks one at a time. The rules don't contradict each other.

If you want to make your attacks one at a time, you follow the four step sequence and then the defending player follows the 'inflict damage' rule. Yes it says 'unit' because you can attack as a unit, but it doesn't mean you have to.
Hello! Again, I'm not going to try and debate too much more about this. I'll just say, if you read the rules, they breakdown the two ways to resolve combat. One way is to attack individually with each model, where you follow the four steps:

1) Hit Roll
2) Wound Roll
3) Save Roll
4) Determine damage (and if you read it they talk about calculating how much damage your attacking unit inflicted.

Then they have a paragraph about doing all the rolls at the same time.

THEN... they have an entire section of two paragraphs called "Inflicting Damage" that starts with the line "After all the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, the player commanding the target unit allocates any wounds that are inflicted by models from the unit as they see fit..." Unit in Warhammer has always meant (even in AoS context) all of the models that are combined together. They even define a Unit on page 1 in the "Warscrolls & Units" section: "Models fight in units. A unit can have one or more models, but cannot include models that use different warscrolls."

So... i do think you're interpreting the rules wrong, however I'm not sure it makes that much of a difference. The wording is vague, so if your opponent is cool with it, I'd say go for it, but talk to them first. If we were playing together I would let you do your rolls individually because I don't really think you gain anything too much from it (except making a combat round last 10x longer), but then I am not a win-at-all-costs player, heck, when I have a unit of 20 Eternal Guard racked up on a movement tray, I dont even pile in with them because I'm too lazy to take them off the tray (and put them all back on after a fight? yuck). ;-)

Will be interesting to see if they ever release a FAQ clarifying these rules. My guess is they will, but it will probably only result in more confusion ;-) hehe
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

Yeah we've both just been restating our arguments, and I don't think either of us has made any progress on the other. Good thing all the back and forth adds to the game's content. If its any constellation, the legislative process in my home state is similarly unproductive. However, it involves a lot more belligerence before the two sides reach the inevitable conclusion. This is the point when I'd raise a motion to end debate and proceed with the majority vote.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Rob451 »

Determine damage is different from inflicting damage (this section should be called allocate damage). You may be misunderstanding because most units do a fixed amount of damage.

The process goes:

Roll attack
Roll wound
Roll save
Determine damage (usually 1 but sometimes more and sometimes random)

Once all of the attacks are complete the owning player then allocates the damage to their models removing casualties as they see fit. All attacks from all models must be resolved before any casualties are removed regardless of if you roll your attacks together or one at a time. This is rules as written.
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Re: AOS Strategy: "Pull from the Front", "Pull from the Back

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

I know I know, the idea here is to treat models in a unit the same way you'd treat single models or heroes. The rules don't instruct you to do this, and they even give an example that shows you do not do this. At best I'm making an argument for a house rule that I think could make movement, charging, combat, and formation building more tactical. I'm primarily thinking about how open the 4 page rules are to these sort of alterations, and seeing how the community would respond. So far it hasn't had a positive reception.
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