why are we so afraid of cannons?

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edmondj
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why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by edmondj »

Why are we so afraid of Cannons?


Did you know that a regular treeman only has an 11.5% chance to die outright from a cannonball?
This, even assuming the person shooting the cannon knows what he's doing (which admittedly will be most of the time).

Ancient Treemen have even more survivability, with only 6% of an outright death. They can moreover recover wounds and give themselves a 5++, further increasing their odds.

If you consider that regular cannon have a 6% chance of blowing themselves up with every shot, this really doesn't seem all that bad?

Put it like this:
your empire opponent spent 120 points on something that is just as likely to make itself a casualty than it will the thing it's actually shooting at.


So let's bring forth the three treemen lists and just march them up, heedless of cannonballs whistling overhead.


Sure, they CAN and occasionally will hurt you, but they're often less of an actual threat than they appear to be.

I feel that hiding our treemen behind buildings until the artillery has been taken off, is overly cautious for the threat they pose.
Especially considering that your treemen are expensive and as such, should participate in the actual combat, not stuck behind a hill.


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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by SmithF »

Target saturation is certainly a way to handle the cannon threat, but the problem doesn't lie with the imperial cannons. Factor in the flaming hits from Skullcannons, the re-rolls on artillery dice from Dwarven artillery, the fact that there's rarely just one cannon around... (Not to mention the presence of spells such as searing doom, which can finish the job the cannon started)

I feel that in order for the treemen to stand a chance, you need to limit their exposure to the enemy artillery. In short, make sure that the enemy only ever gets one chance to shoot at them, tops. Also, even if the treeman ancient is more survivable, he is usually my general, too. So losing him means taking a 400VP hit.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by edmondj »

Actually the reroll artillery dice only increases the fatality chance for a regular treeman by two percent.

Nothing to worry about.

The flaming cannon is a different thing... Your regular treeman only has about a 23% chance to survive a shot there.
Last edited by edmondj on 26 Jun 2015, 13:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Hyarion »

SmithF really hit the nail on the head. Against a single Empire cannon, there odds aren't exactly stacked against you, but that is rarely the case and also not what really puts the fear of cannonballs into people.

Another big part of the issue is that now you are (almost) guaranteed to be hit by the cannonball each time compared with 7th edition where they truly were guess weapons.
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edmondj
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by edmondj »

Without artillery dice reroll you actually will be hit only 50%of the time. With the reroll this becomes 58
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Aezeal »

Outright dead is nasty but certainly not the only criterium to make cannons nasty.. loosing 2-3-4 wounds when you still need to fight the enemy army isn't all that either.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by sunstrider »

From what I've seen on these forums, and the ensuing arguments I've had with people about cannons, is just one of those one off experiences where the opponent rolled really well and they lost a their dragon in a turn. Then every time after when they face one, fear of a 120 point cannon gets them to change their entire battle plan for no real reason, leaving them open to making mistakes.

Yeah cannons do suck to face off against when you are running treemen or dragons, but we have tons of ways of getting rid of artillery, so if you can avoid them until you kill them (two or three turns at most), you won't need to worry the rest of the game. No reason to run in fear of operate any differently than normal
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

You absolutely need scouts with hagbane to defeat cannons and bolt throwers. The main reason that these are so scary for us is that they can significantly out range us. My darkelf buddy always fields the maximum amount of bolt throwers he can against me, and my only real hope against him is to shoot as many poison arrows at them as I can field. That, and hope that I go first. Siege weapons are our number one priority.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Billthesurly »

Nicholas Nitro wrote:You absolutely need scouts with hagbane to defeat cannons and bolt throwers. The main reason that these are so scary for us is that they can significantly out range us. My darkelf buddy always fields the maximum amount of bolt throwers he can against me, and my only real hope against him is to shoot as many poison arrows at them as I can field. That, and hope that I go first. Siege weapons are our number one priority.
Being at long range, in skirmish order and behind any kind of cover tends to pull the teeth of bolt shooters pretty quickly. I like Trueflights best in the counterbattery mode.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

Do you find that works better then using the poison rule to bypass the war-machine's toughness?
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Billthesurly »

First let me start by saying that I usually use multiple GG or Scout units with different arrows. I like the diversity. I also like the challenge of getting the proper armed troops in the right place at the right time. That said; I played around with various combinations when the RB first came out and found that I liked using Trueflight on units that were constantly on the move. Keeping terrain between you and the enemy while also staying out of his close range and being constantly on the move is a style of play that I like.

True Flight Arrows are the GREATEST for that style of play. You will hit with 2/3 of your shots. End of story. If you are shooting at Warmachines 1 in 6 (roughly) is going to be a wounding 6 and since it is also AP we no longer have to worry about that dog gone Dwarf crewman with the lucky mail shirt bouncing off one of those precious sixes.

But here's the good bit. Against softer targets you are still getting 2/3 efficiency from your archers - in other words they shoot like movie elves! Rain of hits! If you are shooting at low toughness targets they are in trouble - even if they have decent armor.

Lastly, I just don't like the idea of an army of elves using poisoned arrows. I like it for my Scouts. They flit about in high stress situations and use whatever tools are available.

Now for those of you who are scratching your heads and hitting the keyboards to shout - "HAGBANES ARE GREAT AND YOU'RE A TWIT!" Yes, they are. (and maybe I am) ;)
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

I hear you, if my glade guard could skirmish I would probably use true flight on every model. As it is, scouts seem like the best option for moving around and shooting at warmachines, so I've opted for hagbane and creating 6+ to hit situations. If I didn't feel like the poison was so important, they would be more effective with true-flight overall. The probabilities of wounding with a 6+ aren't too different then the probabilities of wounding with a to-hit roll of 6+. 100 hagbane arrows, hitting on a 6+, give you 17 wounds. 100 trueflight, hitting at 67%, and wounding on a 6+, gives you 11 wounds. It is close enough to call it a matter of taste.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Sceolan »

Your mileage may vary but I usually use both with more poison. Long range and with hard cover - still 6s to auto wound.. With RBTs having only two wounds, one average shooting phase will take out two minimum.. Poison is great against monsters too.. Kdai destroyers high behind hills when they see my poison arrows lol
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Phazael »

I have, of late, ran an army that was highly vulnerable to mass war machines, especially for a Wood Elf list. Target saturation has assisted me (people tend to shoot the wrong things) as well as using large TF blocks to surgically remove enemy war machines. To me, it is really how easy it is to out play someone and then have them suddenly luck out and one shot a 600 point model. With all of the engineer models, this becomes even more likely. But being able to look out sir is far from an assurance of immunity, just ask any VC character who has had his Lord drilled. A pair of cannons (and those things, like breasts always travel in pairs) will mathematically hit a model, even when protected by a LOS within the first three turns. With all the cannon bait I run, I go in knowing that if I don't take off at least half of the enemy war machines in the first two turns, I am going to lose.

But then again, I am more combat focused than most Wood Elf players. For typical net lists, people only have to worry about protecting their sisterstar (assuming no High Magic) from being depleted to the point where the characters can get sniped. The presence of an Organ Gun/Hellblaster can greatly complicate things. This is a major reason why I think highly of Lore of Heavens, because you can six dice Comet in the middle of the inevitable castle, while hiding out of sight.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by nXken »

Greatest liability of artillery is their movement. And that, gents, is our strongest point! That, and dieing from a windbreeze ;)
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Phazael wrote:To me, it is really how easy it is to out play someone and then have them suddenly luck out and one shot a 600 point model.
This.

You deploy well, turn the screw tactically and then a single cannonball turns a win into a draw.

I've used my Treeman every full-size game I've ever played with my Wood Elves but he might be due for a rest.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Moose123 »

When I played my issue with cannons was not really the one shot kills. Although, it is absolutely crushing to have your most beautiful model blown off the board by an ugly cannon. The problem with cannons is that leaving your monster with one, two, even three wounds significantly reduces his effectiveness. Treemen drop to a few lucky rolls that normally wouldn't matter, a dragon lord no longer has a chance against that dwarflord in a challenge, your treeman ancient is much more vulnerable to a miscast...

The real problem with cannons is that they can easily cripple your monsters severely limiting how you can use them.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Phil Rossiter »

That too.

But an M5 model often has trouble getting anywhere near combat before a pair of cannon finishes him off.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

Nowadays (A.O.S.) cannons and other warmachines are still a problem for wood-elves, and we have different solutions for them. The best tactic I know of is to try and pack Glade Guard into a "Wander Host" and use the Realm Wander special rule to ambush. Small units of Wardancers are also nice to try and make a charge with. War-machines seem to take a lot of arrows so maybe it isn't the best tactic? You can also win the roll off and decide to split the table long ways, and that can sometimes give you a way to avoid their range.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Nicholas Nitro wrote:Nowadays (A.O.S.)
A lot of people are also playing 8th edition.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

I know, I'm trying to purge that system from my memory without throwing away the tactics that are still useful.
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Moose123 »

There's no points in AoS so to counter cannons just bring 3 dragon lords :p
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Re: why are we so afraid of cannons?

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

Moose123 wrote:There's no points in AoS so to counter cannons just bring 3 dragon lords :p
:!:
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