Wardancers and Waywatchers

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yanchusart
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Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by yanchusart »

Hey guys,

Just trying to do some research about these units and I would love to hear any input you might have. I wanted to know, how many do you use in your army, how do you like to use them, etc. What are some good/bad things about them I should know about you have experienced personally.

Thanks
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Hyarion »

Beware of magic spells that don't roll to hit on the Waywatchers.

I also seem to have really bad luck with Stepping up attacks back to my Wardancers, so take extra care to either hit a flank or combo charge with something else. Or both.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Aezeal »

WW:
I use about 0.75 waywatchers per 100 points (~15 in 2000 points).
WW are THE anti-armor solution we have.
Their BS 5 is a great bonus.
The fact they are scouts makes the great to position them within 30" of the most heavily armored troops the enemy has.
Them being skirmishers gives them the option to dance around approaching infantry (you can pretty much march around enemies and move out of charge arc). Moving out of a longer range charge arc from cavalry is not so easy though.
The MS 2 option is nice against some targets and makes them usefull agianst other targets is armor is gone (and vs horde armies).

WD
I sometimes use a unit of 5 WD to screen my GG. But lately I've not used them.
Skirmishers: Stubborn in Woods. Combined with the 3++ dance they let you make them survive and hold after 1 round of combat (next round w/o the dance they'll probably be gone though).
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by thomas »

I autoinclude 9 waywatchers allways. If I play 2000 or more I allways take 9 more for a total of 18 in two units.
They are just too damn good :)
Things to remember about them:

-They really dont have to be placed as close too the enemy as possible. They hit on 3's at longrange with no armour saves. They will kill a few knights even if they stay 30" away.
-Remember to move them around as soon as the enemy comes close.
-They do deliver some "punch" in CC but only against a select few units. However they can remove chaff that doesnt have ASF quite easy.
-If you are against enemy with AS5+ or AS6+ then almost allways use multiple shot. Just dont get the to hit roll above 4+. Then it is almost never worth it.
-champion isnt worth it
-Create hardcover for your more valuable units.

Wardancers is a unit I rarely use. It is unfortunate because I like them. Our shooting is the strongest so they kind of fall out of that scope.
But they are not entirely useless. They work as a mage bunker quite nice when you cannot use Sisters of thorn for whatever reason.
They can be a waystalker bunker instead of the waywatchers (however WS are more usefull in a waywatcher unit, but this works also).

Things to remember about them:
-The do have Killing Blow. Charge thoose vampire lords, heroes on horses, etc. 5 wardancers in a suicide charge could kill them.
-They are a perfect speed bump (killing blow) or roadblock (3+ ward). They could also then take out characters.
-Musician and champion is a waste of points...
-Slingshot your death mage half way across the table ;) (dirty tactic I now, but it is mostly "legal" ;) )
-Create hardcover for your more valuable units.
-Charge into the flank and remove rank bonus.


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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by ~ Wardancer ~ »

1st my answer is based on 3000 to 5000 pts and every stinking player around me ( 9 ) only fielding armies of destruction. I always have 2 to 3 units of Waywatchers of ay least 7 peppered with Waystalkers. 1 unit of Wardancers 11 to 12 strong with 3 to 4 Shadowdancers sometimes 1 as a mage if I have the points. Drop a spell thieving sword on a shadowdancer in this highly flexible unit and you can wreak havoc with spell casters or catch an elite unit in the woods and you can usually break them 1st round. There's always something these boys can mess up early. Spell support it with almost any lore you want and it's a game changer.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Polycotton »

Back in the good old days (5th edition) I had a unit of everything in my army and they were all useful, horribly overpriced Warhawks and Spearelves aside.

These days Wardancers are less useful and struggle to compete with other special choices. They are a very conditional unit.
They can be good at delaying a unit for a turn with their 3+ dance if they are in woods and can get stubborn.
They can charge an enemy flank and give +4 to the combat result for a flank charge and removal of enemy rank bonus; if they are up against single attack infantry. Attempting this against a block of Ogres will see them all killed and actually have a net negative result on the combat.
They can kill chaff units very effectively, but so can most other units in your army.
They can actually put out some damage vs T3 troops with low armour saves, but anything T4 with even an ok armour save and they don't do anything.
They can speedbump, but Eagles do it better and cheaper.
You can chuck them against some wizard and hope you get lucky with a killing blow and a failed ward save, but more than likely you will end up just losing 75pts for absolutely no gain.
In old editions Wardancers were a great utility unit that could do a lot and do it ok. These days they are a utility unit that do everything pretty poorly. The two major factors that stop me from taking them is that they can't do damage and that even when they can they can't soak up any return damage; so they will rarely net a favourable combat result outcome against any sort of average combat unit. They also compete with way better units in special.
You know a Wood Elf unit is sub par when most responses about how effective they can be start with 'If you manage to cast x spell on them they can really do some damage.' I will take Warhawks any day of the week for a utility unit, even if they are twice the price.

Waywatchers were awesome back in the day and became less awesome in the previous army book and now they are back to being awesome. They have the ballistic skill to make double shots a wise choice and give Wood Elves what they have always wanted, a way to punch through armour. For fluff reasons I never ran more than 7 in previous editions but these days I have run 10 in a 2000pt game and would likely run more if facing some army filled with armour. My regular opponents are Orcs and Gobbos and Ogres though. Not much more really needs to be said. On their own, without any magic buffs they are excellent value for money. Just be careful of magic missiles and flame templates.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Aezeal »

How do you slingshot a deathmage with wardancers?
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Mollesvinet »

Suppose it's the same as any other slingshots, although wardancers are mobile due to skirmish which makes it easier. You can do a conga line of wardancers with the back of the unit within 10 inches of your mage, then you march the mage to join the wardancers and she will slingshot to the front of the unit.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

Way-watchers are arguably the best unit we have. War-dancers are for very specific uses, like flank charges or protecting a character. I'd love to see a battle report with someone trying a war-dancer horde.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Aezeal »

Mollesvinet wrote:Suppose it's the same as any other slingshots, although wardancers are mobile due to skirmish which makes it easier. You can do a conga line of wardancers with the back of the unit within 10 inches of your mage, then you march the mage to join the wardancers and she will slingshot to the front of the unit.
I'm not sure the guys I play with would appreciate this. Even if I can quote the BRB.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by henrypmiller »

Waywatchers are the best anti-armour WE have.

Wardancers are the best speed bumps/redirectors for their points in the game (in my opinion). And they can also kill stuff in the right match ups.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Kaese »

I have used a unit of 10 dancers in last two games with completely different results. In the first game against high elves They got wiped out on turn 2 by enemy shooting (and my treeman ancients dimensional cascade str10 template :roll:). The second game against chaos was completely different story. First I protected my ancient against 2x5 poisonous hounds, and few turns later managed to make a flank charge on 20+ khorne warriors and destroy them in single combat. +4T from flesh to stone and shield of thorns helped alot. :D

I would say wardancers can be good against an army that doesn't shoot back. I don't expect them to do much, but they can be very versatile support because of the dances. If given good opportunity (with some help from magic) tey can also do some damage.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Phazael »

The units have their uses.

If you have no other way to kill 1+ armor or you just want to scout to harass people/win the vanguard game, Waywatchers are a solid choice in any size. Their usefulness largely depends on your army build, however. Personally, I tend to bring a five pack just to negate enemy Vanguard and hunt war machines while my Wild Riders do most of the work on armor. If you are the run and gun type, then take lots and pair them with Shadow magic.

Wardancers are a mixed bag, like all the fighting infantry units. They work ok as a deflector screen and they can be amazing when combined with the right magic in large numbers, but both strategies are dependent on other factors. For the 5 man deflector units, you need lots of woods to abuse steadfast and conga lining them with a champ may not go over well with your locals. For the big units, you are at the mercy of the magic phase in a lot of ways. The main issue is that Wild Riders do so much more for less.

The characters are both better than the parent units. The sniper guy is really versatile in numerous ways. The Dancer is a good addition to a ranked unit, like EG, and a workable scroll caddy if you need it to be.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

I think the only way to see a Wardancer horde in action might be to make my own. Thinking about it, the first 20 models(first 2 ranks) with hand weapons for 300, the next 30(back 3 ranks) with spears for 480.
So for 780pts the horde in a forest would make 60 attacks at default. With the 'whirling death' dance that'd get 60 killing blow attacks and re-roll all to wound rolls of one. Against witch elves the 'storm of blades' would make it 70 regular attacks, and the 'Shadows Coil' dance makes them tough enough to survive.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Etheneus »

But wait, skirmishers don't have ranks. How does that work with hordes? Is that only for the CR rank benefit and steadfast?
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

Yeah it's for CR, and in the forest no one has ranks... but skirmishers gain stubborn!
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Phazael »

That's a pretty big chunk of points. I think it would be fun to try out (I actually have the models to run that), but I see most people treating it like a Witch elf bus (either ignoring it or shooting it to ribbons) and a lot of points sitting idle all game long.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Nicholas Nitro »

That's pretty awesome that you have 50+ war-dancer models!
Yeah the game would have to be a minimum of 1,560 points to do it. I was thinking that 'IF' I had an obstacle like a building or tower on my side of the board, I could deploy the free forest behind it, deploy the war-dancer hoard in the forest, and hopefully screen most of the artillery. Enemy archers will have at least a minus 2 to hit (skirmish, light cover from the forest). The average archer would have less of a chance to wound them then they would have to make a ward save. Plus they work well with all the different forest types, so you can tailor to your opponent.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Phazael »

I own 40 war dancers (got four of the anniversary boxes when they were unloading them for pennies on the dollar at games day) and some spearmen that can represent either WD or EG. I think 15 points for a skirmishing T3 S3 model is just too much to pay, so they have not seen much use since the last book.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by laribold »

A touch situational, but wouldn't Wardancers be amazing at holding buildings?

They get steadfast/stubborn for free.
A maximum of 10 attackers can hit them.
Each combat is a new one, so you can choose the 3++ ward for every round.
Cavalry/Monstrous Cavalry don't get their mount bonuses (does this open up MC to Killing Blow? Not sure...) so busting armour is less of an issue.
As skirmishers with good movement they stand a good chance of getting into the building

With decent WS, ASF and a 3++ ward, I think a reasonable-sized unit (say 12-15) could hold a building all game once they were in there.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Aezeal »

I think it works (not the KB on MC tough)... but as you say.. situational.

BTW if you kill all comers (those allowed to fight in the building) before they strike.. do they still get to hit back?
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by HorridStonefish »

Waywatchers are an auto include for me, 2 units of 6-8, not too many points tied up in them and they can devestate heavy cav, small light units (with MS) and be used to pick those last wounds off the big nasties.

I love my wardancers, 75p for 5 of them, great redirectors, will demolish any other chaff stupid enough to come near them and KB can win you the game. I generally run 2 units of 5 and they regulary pick up a game winning KB on a Chaos lord level character, Vampire Lord, etc. etc. Great to drop into the front of those heavy cavalry buses and say 'go on, charge me' chuck a curse from the sisters into the works and bam, dead in the water cav bus.
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Re: Wardancers and Waywatchers

Post by Phil Rossiter »

HorridStonefish wrote:2 units of 6-8
I agree. Used to run seven in a mixed combat list but found twelve to be my sweet spot because of armour. Even against other stuff, the ability to drop both units late and focus fire on your target of choice is excellent.
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