Treeman vs Cannon

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Duraska
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Re: Treeman vs Cannon

Post by Duraska »

Whats the best unit for hunting and killing those cannons? Hagbane scounts (how many models/units)? Warhawk Riders? Glade Riders (with hagbane? less reliable do to ambush)?
Aezeal
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Re: Treeman vs Cannon

Post by Aezeal »

Not the GR: you want to kill them first turn if possible.

The hagbane scouts and the warhawk riders are good units for it.

Regular hagbane archers can do it too btw.. pretty often the enemy deploys them in the middle of his deployment zone.. or a bit to the front and then you can hit them with GG too. Since you are mostly aiming for the poison anyway the negative to hit modifiers don't matter all that much UNLESS you go to 7+ to hit of course since poison won't work anymore.
NonnoSte
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Re: Treeman vs Cannon

Post by NonnoSte »

Problem is that at BS4 move, long range and hard cover (other units or entrenchment) set you at 7+ already and since he's likely to.deploy war machines after your archers, it's not so difficult a situation to create, making your shooting ineffective turn 1.
Scouts on the other hand can be deployed exactly where they're most needed. So you'll need to move them only to end in short range and attempt a charge next turn.

Warhawks on their side has also the pro of being viable as shields for the Treeman.
If you deploy them in front of it, a cannonball will have to kill one of them before bouncing on the Treeman behind.
Aezeal
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Re: Treeman vs Cannon

Post by Aezeal »

NonnoSte wrote:Problem is that at BS4 move, long range and hard cover (other units or entrenchment) set you at 7+ already and since he's likely to.deploy war machines after your archers, it's not so difficult a situation to create, making your shooting ineffective turn 1.
Scouts on the other hand can be deployed exactly where they're most needed. So you'll need to move them only to end in short range and attempt a charge next turn.

Warhawks on their side has also the pro of being viable as shields for the Treeman.
If you deploy them in front of it, a cannonball will have to kill one of them before bouncing on the Treeman behind.
I did start with the scouts and warhawks. The GG can often help a bit though since if they are deployed on the edge of our deploment zone you can reach relatively far into theirs. I'd not rely on that myself I have to admit.. but if I have a shot with hagbanes I'll often try it. I've had numerous times where I've only had the -1 long range or long range and soft cover for -2.
Duraska
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Re: Treeman vs Cannon

Post by Duraska »

Yeah, so far I usually only use Trueflight on my glade guard and save poison for more mobile units (like scouts). It seems very rare that I'd ever have clear line of sight to the enemy war machine. Since cannons can fire over top of friendly troops, my opponents usually have them behind their combat units, so I'd be looking at -3 to hit (-1 for long range, and -2 for hard cover since the cannon is behind a unit). That makes Hagbane glade guard hitting only on 6's (which is kinda okay, since poison auto-wounds on a to-hit roll of 6), but if the glade guard has to move to get in range, they're instead hitting on 7's, which negates the poison special rule all together.
razorfate
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Re: Treeman vs Cannon

Post by razorfate »

As far as i know the cannon crew are only for wound counters for the shooting but when you get into close combat you attack against their toughness and not the cannon's. Am i correct?
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Polycotton
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Re: Treeman vs Cannon

Post by Polycotton »

Duraska wrote:Hey everyone! I'm quite new to the Wood Elves (only played 3 games, but have been collecting and painting for about 6 months off and on), and I'm looking for advice in keeping my treemen (and ancients) alive versus the laser-guided, bark-seeking missiles that cannons seem to be in Warhammer.

Right now I'm just playing my buddy, who is Ogre Kingdoms, and his list rocks two Ironblasters. My current list is a bit suboptimal (but awesome looking) with a Treeman Ancient as my general and a second treeman running flank along 6 treekin. Unfortunately every turn my buddy just aims his cannons 10" in front of my TA and by turn 2 he's usually eaten 3-4 cannon balls and dies, giving around 450 VP. What are some tactics used by you folks who regularly run treeman (or does anyone)? The models are just too cool to leave out of a list - what's the point of running Wood Elves if you leave the "wood" part at home? :roll:

PS. He also runs a BSB with a hell-heart, so charging my TA into combat and/or my mage in a sisters bus in too soon can equal game over (especially the sisters.. since they just auto-take d3 wounds with no saves of any kind instead of rolling the miscast ...Brutal!)

My current list (I tweak it a bit each game)

2498/2500
Treeman Ancient (general) lvl 3 life w/ strangleroots
Spellweaver lvl 4 Heavens on steed w/ tal of preservation and dispel scroll

10x Glade Guard w/ trueflight and musician
10x Glade Guard w/ trueflight and musician
10x Glade Guard w/ trueflight and musician
8x Glade Riders w/ Hagbane and musician
7x Sisters w/ musician and standard (lichebone) - mage bunker
6x Treekin
5x Wild Riders w/ shield
5x Wild Riders w/ shield
Treeman
10x Waywatchers

Thanks in advance!

[Edit: accidentally wrote 2948/2500 instead of 2498/2500]
You have a lot of sub-optimal units in your list vs Ogres.

Hagbanes would be more useful than the Trueflight arrows unless you place woods in the middle of the table. They are especially useful for poisoning cannons.
Treemen don't get to stamp vs Ogres and as you keep experiencing, they get shot by Cannons or whumped by S6 Ironguts.
Gladeriders can only shoot Ogres. If they ever get into combat they can only ever result in a negative combat result unless you are helping wipe out a unit and can give a rear charge bonus. Get more Glade Guard or Scouts instead. Warhawks would be better if you really want a maneuverable fast cavalry unit.
Treemen Ancient with Strangleroots is a waste of points. He is hitting on 5's or 6's most of the time.
At least one Eagle for redirecting would be useful, two would be better.
Life Magic isn't so crash hot with the army you have. About the only viable target you have for Life Spells is your Treekin and your Treemen. The Treekin will generally get owned by Ogres without putting out enough damage. If your Ancient is with them he can give them stubborn. I prefer Treemen Ancients when I am running big blocks of troops like Eternal Guard, 30 Wildwood Rangers or big 9 strong Treekin units led by the Ancient.
Ogres have terrible initiative. Run Death Magic on your Level 4 Mage and Snipe his BSB or go for the completely unfun Purple Sun 6 dice and win the game right there. Shadow Magic also syncs up perfectly with your shooting and has another horrible AOE Pit of Shades designed to murderise Ogres who have bad initiative.
The only semi reliable anvils you have in your army are the Treemen, and against cannons and S6 Ironguts these aren't so reliable. A unit of 25-30 Eternal guard are a very reliable anvil that can set up your Wild Riders for flank chargers.
I would give your level 4 an Earthing Rod for the inevitable Hellheart use on the one magic phase where you finally roll a total higher than 5 on the winds of magic.
Aezeal
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Re: Treeman vs Cannon

Post by Aezeal »

razorfate wrote:As far as i know the cannon crew are only for wound counters for the shooting but when you get into close combat you attack against their toughness and not the cannon's. Am i correct?
True:

Wounds: Always the number of crewman, the statistic in an armybook is never any use.
Toughness: Shooting: warmachine profile, melee: crew profile.
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