Are Treekin really that bad?

[Yojimbo]

Was thinking of getting some but not sure if they are worth it since the nerfing? Don't want to inveat a tonne of money in a unit I won't field.

[Phil Rossiter]

When the preview revealed Treekin were S4 I thought "good, cheaper is good". Ran the numbers on combats vs typical enemies, not good. Took a unit of four to a tournament, no good at all against the fast, S5+ stuff they met. They just get combat res'd to death.

I recently considered trying a unit of six again, in place of my Treeman. After all, they can't be one-shotted. The problem is, how do they function in the army? With a Ld10 General and BSB within 12", they have decent chances to hold, maybe Steadfast. But at M5 with no musician, they just don't have the flexibility of a Treeman, say, who can pivot and move 10" in any direction. Or who can hold stuff up without help on Stubborn if the battle goes badly. For my money, a Wood Elf army stands or falls on the flexibility of it's units.

So not awful but commital and that is risky in today's metagame.

[Yojimbo]

Hmm. After using a treeman a few times and being pleasantly suprised I thought they might be worth it but sounds like that's not the case. So better to load up on treemen if I want some muscle? I'm having the problem that my usual opponent is getting bored of me running away all the time so trying to be more combat orientated.

[Phil Rossiter]

The problem with multiple Treemen is when you run into Daemons say, or Dwarfs, with their Flaming cannon. Dragons are not bad because they fly, are not Flammable and have a rider. A game vs Empire for example though, will be nail-biting. Wild Riders are powerful but only on the charge. A bus of characters in Sisters is interesting. A horde of Rangers is good going forward but if things go wrong, not so good defensively. Eternal Guard are very reliable and Core, which gives you more options. They need magical help to kill things though.

[tomrobo23]

Phil is pretty much dead on. s5 was the only thing that would make them worth fielding last edition, now though . . . Against a competent opponent they can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, don't even get hatred. In return they take minimal wounds due to decent ws and T to be sure (as long it's not s5 or with lots of attacks, which is, you know, most competent combat units) but they get almost no ranks so lose on CR and die. Very inflexible, no command options really, m5 is lower than all the other MI even with magic buffs the argument that with okhams or wyssans they're good isn't really true as any other elf combat unit gets as much out of it but with asf and higher ws and, very often, strength.

I'd just made 6 treekin expanding on the 3 i had going into the new book, used them a bunch and at a tournament then left them in their case ever since, sadly disappointing.

[Phil Rossiter]

The most promising set-up I've seen had a High Magic Unicorn with Stubborn Crown on one end and a Stag BSB on the other, both with 4+ Wards. High Magic helps with movement and the MR is good. You still need an extra mage if you want to kill much though. The problem is you are building an army around an inflexible unit, not the unit to help the army.

[Yojimbo]

If you're relying on magic buffs or the inclusion of kitted out combat characters just to make a unit functional then that says to me that they are not worth bothering with. I think I'll just invest in some warhawks instead. Such a shame I love the tree spirit elements of our army, although even from an aesthetic perspective treekin are a let down imho.

[Phil Rossiter]

The Deathstar approach works wonders with some units, I just don't feel Treekin have enough going for them to start with. Hard to put wounds on but that's about it and they are not Core, which matters.

Dryads are maybe worth a go. A Treeman can do a job. A Branchwraith can be excellent in the right list.

[Aezeal]

If you bring 2 ranks of 3 then you'd basicly have 18 attacks + 3 stomps on S4 for 270 points which can't be much worse than EG can put on the table for those points. Even has a decent AS.
I think that if characters where saver in there you could use them much better. Now you really can't risk much characters in there so you don't have them which means you loose out vs EG there. 25 EG are a bunker too, treekin aren't. I think that is about the most important thing why they are less used.

[Phil Rossiter]

At first it looks like Treekin should be better.

But EG are Ld9 Stubborn Core with full command options, a lot easier to fit into a coherant army list.

[Mollesvinet]

My treekin is probably turning into unit fillers for my eternal guard. That's really all I have to say on that matter I am afraid.

[Coyle_Ravane]

I do still want to try out a horde of 18 treekin some day. 6 stomp + 54 attacks!

Now cast mind razor and laugh maniacally.

Hugely impractical, but so much potential fun.

[NonnoSte]

I do still want to try out a horde of 18 treekin some day. 6 stomp + 54 attacks!

Now cast mind razor and laugh maniacally.

Hugely impractical, but so much potential fun.

I'd be tempted to run this with a light council in a moonstoning Glade Guards bunker, but after you pay for mages, core and that gigantic unit, you can barely fit an eagle or two and some waywatchers.

[Aezeal]

If you do this with a moonstone it would be hard to catch them... if you can get multiple HUGE forests on the table .

Or if you play them next to malekith: he could teleport them 20 inch and they'd be killing right away. Malekith, full GG core with hagbane and 810 points worth of treekings . I actually think you would have most bases covered. You probably have some room for scouts to kill warmachines (though Malekith should be able to deal with those too, but the more go down turn 1 the better). And Malekith would be able to cast all those nice shadow spellssss...

Not sure if an equal number of EG wouldn't still be better (especially considering the boost malekith gives them (+1 extra rank and reroll all to wound rolls.. which is probably even better than just +1 S in all cases). How much attacks would 810 points of EG get next to Malekith?

[tomrobo23]

The moment you bring in Malekith you bring in all the other Elf combat options from High and Dark Elves. Lets face it equivalent witch elves, darkshards, white lions, executioners etc are all much better choices and get to use the martial prowess, murderous prowess and all the other buffs (most importantly reroll to wound from Malekith himself as well as fight in an extra rank which the TK don't get)

[Yojimbo]

The only redeeming feature I can think of in response to the general feeling that treekin are a poor choice is that they can be used as a screen against cannon? They might be useful im that respect.

[Aezeal]

The moment you bring in Malekith you bring in all the other Elf combat options from High and Dark Elves. Lets face it equivalent witch elves, darkshards, white lions, executioners etc are all much better choices and get to use the martial prowess, murderous prowess and all the other buffs (most importantly reroll to wound from Malekith himself as well as fight in an extra rank which the TK don't get)

Yeah but still you could use the treekin as a deepstrik unit, put them behind enemy lines and out of Malekith range (but still in range of his LD test.. which helps). Then Malekith can keep the elves close to benefit from the rerolls.

I admit though.. if I took Malekith I'd probably go for EG and wardancers (re-roll my missed killing blow.. thank you).

[Phil Rossiter]

A small unit of Treekin can cannon screen but this works best with a Treeman as both are M5. I prefer Warhawks for this job because they can do it effectively for Dragons and MonCav too, as well as being a pretty flexible unit generally. Treekin have the Ward save but Warhawks are not Flammable.

[abyzzal]

I've run treekin a fair bit, I think they do still have a use as a solid anvil, but you really need to be running either life or light magic for them to be worth their points over eternal guard. +2T means most things will be wounding on 6's so they don't give but much combat res that way, or light of battle for auto passing leadership tests means that whatever is attacking them is going to be spending the rest of forever trying to shift them. That's as long as you can be getting those spells off of course, but most people seem more interested in dispelling bironas off wild riders (yes 7 attacks per model ) than worrying about whats going on treekin. Wyssans can also work too although less likely to get it off.

[popisdead]

They were never reliable as a CC block last book and their defensive reliability has stayed close to what it was previous. People used them effectively on the previous book 3-large and now the points drop make them still effective in this use. The problem with comes from Wild Riders and Warhawk Riders having a good offensive output for a similar build.

So they aren't bad but they were viewed differently before and I am not sure people have adjusted to them in the new book.

Perhaps looking at them as an alternative to 10 Dryads would make more sense.

[Avian]

Which leads us back to the debate of why take dryads in the current book? Sure they are not bad taken on their own merits but as soon as you compare them with the rest of our core they get less and less interesting.

The sad fact is that because forest spirits were the back bone of our army on the last book GW had to nerd them in order to be able to sell the new models. Irritating, but it makes good business sense. Although tbh even looking at the old forest spirits vs the new I would still take other things due to to cost/benefit of them.

It's the same reason that even post Glotkin for my Beastmen I take Bestigor over minotaurs every time 61 points per model vs 14 with marks ect. For what you pay you get more and Treekin suffer the same issue. 40 points vs 11/12 for an EG if we roll 3 guardsmen into on to make the number of wounds even your paying 36 points. Sure they are no as strong or tough but they will hold better, deal with armour just as well and have better combat res.

[Phil Rossiter]

10 Dryads is the only reliable redirector available from Core. It often dies slowly too. Can also do light combat duties (clear skinks etc). Problem is it is a bit inflexible. A bigger block could work IMHO but only if you build your army around it. Is this desirable?

[Aezeal]

The thing is we have such good choices in core, special and rare that spending points on chaff/redirectors seems like a waste. Especially if you have a ranged army then redirecting is just hardly worth the points... getting more arrows will often be a better choice IMHO. Sure dryads could delay enemies a round, maybe 2.. but if I get 10 GG extra that means 2-3 turns of extra shooting with 10 arrows.. and then I can just sacrifice them as redirectors (not as cheap.. I admit).

In special you really want to spend points on WR, Sisters, scouts and warhawks... all of those are often deployed in units that are small enough to be sacrificed if it's really needed.. but wildriders will almost certainly get the charge and pick whom they fight with and will do a shitload more damage. Not to mention they are just good use in situations when you don't need to redirect.

Rare ofcourse has the GE but I prefer spending points on waywatchers.. they are just that good and flexible.

[Phil Rossiter]

Against many armies that's fine. But what about a cav bus buffed up with Ward saves? What about really fast monsters like the K'daai Destroyer? What about WoC heroes on Daemonic mounts? I agree fewer redirectors are needed these days but a couple can still be very useful in important match-ups.

[UKlvrBM]

Against many armies that's fine. But what about a cav bus buffed up with Ward saves? What about really fast monsters like the K'daai Destroyer? What about WoC heroes on Daemonic mounts? I agree fewer redirectors are needed these days but a couple can still be very useful in important match-ups.

It's 100 points for two eagles. Dryads and treekin are ok, but there are more efficient options. That's really the best way to look at it. Can you take them? Sure. Should you take them? Only if you want them for fluff reasons. Why? Because there are better options.

Treekin are absolutely terrible in a drawn out combat, which is what they will likely be in unless they are buffed. They lose on combat resolution just about every time. S4 was a terrible blow. You would be better served with a unit of EG or treeman for something to hold up units. So, that's a core option or a rare option. Both are better than using up our precious special points. Because our special units are pretty awesome.

Dryads are cheap and T4. That's really their only redeeming quality because they aren't skirmishers anymore. I have always found that my GG do a much better job of getting their points back though.