Are Treekin really that bad?

[Phil Rossiter]

But the idea of redirectors is not to get points back, it's to die and maybe do some other stuff first. I absolutely agree, 2 eagles for this over Dryads any day of the week. But Dryads are Core, that might matter if you don't have enough non-Core points to fit two eagles. Also, Dryads tend to clog the enemy up when doing this I've found. Plus they can do light combat support.

But writing an efficient list with Dryads in? Difficult.

[sunstrider]

I do still want to try out a horde of 18 treekin some day. 6 stomp + 54 attacks!

Now cast mind razor and laugh maniacally.

Hugely impractical, but so much potential fun.

I'd be tempted to run this with a light council in a moonstoning Glade Guards bunker, but after you pay for mages, core and that gigantic unit, you can barely fit an eagle or two and some waywatchers.

I always thought the light magic spells (especially the one that gives ASF) would make the treekin stellar. Buffing all those S4 attacks makes them far more valuable then just a random block of tree kin. People should really give magic buffed tree kin some thought.

Think about it. Beasts would give a MUCH needed offensive buff. For Shadow you don't even need mindrazor, just debuff toughness and ws and your treekin will become far better offensively and defensively. With life, all those wounds you either save or regenerate become far more valuable then saving/regenerating EG or WWR. And light shores up the tree kin signature lack of good leadership/leadership special rules, and can make them elf-level good in combat.

You all just need to open your minds up to the possibilities

[Gwill_of_the_Woods]

Fluff-wise I like the idea of using lore of light, it's like they are soaking up the rays in a summer themed kind of way

Personally I really like them. I must say straight up though, that I don't play competitively so I am not as critical about the performance of units. I use life and beasts a lot and have had a good bit of luck with them.

[popisdead]

It basically comes down to resilience vs Core allotment.

Facing 9 T5 4+/6+ wounds I'm not going to remove that as a WE player like I could Dryads.

[Phil Rossiter]

But our comments aren't based on bow-loving theoryhammer Sunstrider. They're based on playing Treekin repeatedly under the old book against strong opponents and hard lists and finding them wanting. Now take a point of Strength away, which is vital to MI with no static res and play them again. I did and they were worse. S5 is far, far more important than defensive buffs because they have to kill things to generate CR. Enemies don't have to put wounds on the Treekin to break them with static res.

S5 not only gives +1 to wound but -1 AS too, without which a combat vs 1+ AS for example is an auto-loss. Light buffs are great but without getting to S5 they are still going to struggle big time vs tough, armoured opponents. Even with S5, no re-rolls and WS4 mean only half their attacks hit. You have to get very lucky to get two spells past a competent player. Mindrazor makes a big difference but then it does on anything in the army. If you IF, great but that's a 26% chance on six dice. Otherwise you must draw the scroll first.

No-one is saying they can't work or that people shouldn't try. I spend every game trying to make dodgy units function and use Life and Beasts a lot. But you have to test them and assess their performance in the cold light of day.

[sunstrider]

But our comments aren't based on bow-loving theoryhammer Sunstrider. They're based on playing Treekin repeatedly under the old book against strong opponents and hard lists and finding them wanting. Now take a point of Strength away, which is vital to MI with no static res and play them again. I did and they were worse. S5 is far, far more important than defensive buffs because they have to kill things to generate CR. Enemies don't have to put wounds on the Treekin to break them with static res.

S5 not only gives +1 to wound but -1 AS too, without which a combat vs 1+ AS for example is an auto-loss. Light buffs are great but without getting to S5 they are still going to struggle big time vs tough, armoured opponents. Even with S5, no re-rolls and WS4 mean only half their attacks hit. You have to get very lucky to get two spells past a competent player. Mindrazor makes a big difference but then it does on anything in the army. If you IF, great but that's a 26% chance on six dice. Otherwise you must draw the scroll first.

No-one is saying they can't work or that people shouldn't try. I spend every game trying to make dodgy units function and use Life and Beasts a lot. But you have to test them and assess their performance in the cold light of day.

I'm trying to advocate for new ideas in a thread and has consigned a unit that is missing a point of strength to the shelf, not attacking your experience. And using experiences gained from old rules and combinations of units limits their potential effectiveness because you already have preconceptions that they are gonna do poorly, and that effects your tactical decision making.

Regardless, I'm gonna borrow ogres from a friend to run a horde of tree kin in a large game this weekend, I'll let you know what I find.

[Mollesvinet]

That should be interesting, looking forward for the report sunstrider!

I think light magic is the way to go, boosting WS, I, A and giving ASF. Even in a losing fight, you can make them unbreakable to avoid losing your huge investment.

[Phil Rossiter]

The Horde idea is worth trying definitely.

The argument was simply coming across as "you're not trying hard enough with them". When a strong, creative player like Tom Robinson posts that he's tried hard to make them work and been unable to, that is a bad sign.

I have a constant struggle trying to make combat builds work because shooty avoidance has so much going for it. To work out which combat units and builds cut the mustard, we have to be objective IMHO. Treekin are not useless but they struggle to justify their place in a list.

[tomrobo23]

Yeah, at any point in a game i'm never left thinking "Wish I had treekin for this game." For eternal guard yeah, even made a build centered around them which worked surprisingly well in a tournament. Wildwood Rangers have their use as a R&F s5 which Woodies struggle to put out. when the enemy got to your back line of glade guard I'm wishing i had wardancers to screen from a wood, luckily i generally do though. But you see what i mean, they're a tanking unit which is okay at tanking but has no means to generate the CR effectively to actually tank for more than a turn against a competent opponent. Leaves you thinking what is it they are actually bringing to the table.

On a side note I did find a use for them at a tournament. They make good bait, everyone knows they're dead points and having someone make a beeline for them away from the rest of my army with his VC blender bus gives you a great opportunity.

[Phil Rossiter]

That's a good point.

I've drawn off Dragons and such with them. They'll die but it buys you a turn or two.

[NonnoSte]

Are you saying that the points spent on them couldn't have possibly been spent on something else, which could have done other things the times that there were no dragons to delay?
I don't believe so.

Anything can work as a bait, but Treekin seem unable to do anything else.

[godswearhats]

Treekin are not that bad. The problem is that everything they do can be done better by another unit, often for less point. The only reason I still play with them is they are comped lightly in Swedish and I like how mine are painted.

Mindrazor is great on them, but a unit of 8 war dancers will pump out the same number of attacks across the same frontage at less than half the cost (of 6 treekin).

Wyssans helps, and when you run L4 Beasts with the book of Ashur, they are a fun 1-dice target at the end of magic phase.

You *can* make them work and I do. But I know they are sub-optimal and always will be.

[godswearhats]

My math is a little off but my point is still valid :-)

[Phil Rossiter]

Could this have something to do with you just being a good player GWH?



I agree though, they're not hopeless, they just require a lot of effort in list-building and play that many guys might prefer to expend elsewhere.

[Hyarion]

Treekin aren't that bad if you can integrate how you use them into your list. I've used them to great success just because in my army lists they are one of the only rank and file troops I use, giving my opponent something to fixate on.

[Aezeal]

how do you use them? a unit of 6?

[godswearhats]

Yes. Any more is too many points, any less they don't survive very long.

[Baardah]

How about 3 units of 3.
Pros:
Target saturation
Cannon shields for treemen
Cheap
More?
Great target for bubble wyssans

Cons:
Less resilient
Slow
Low (or?) damage output

[godswearhats]

If only you could bubble Wyssans.

[Aezeal]

How about 3 units of 3.
Pros:
Target saturation
Cannon shields for treemen
Cheap
More?
Great target for bubble wyssans

Cons:
Less resilient
Slow
Low (or?) damage output

Everything is possible but it would really cut into my wildrider allowance ehm I mean special choices.

[nXken]

Aezeal's next tournament list:

Malekith

2 x GG HBT

4 x WR

10 Scouts - HBT

10 WW

[Phil Rossiter]

Sadly Wild Riders as a Special choice are capped at three units.

It's a hard life.

[nXken]

More scouts then

[godswearhats]

Sadly Wild Riders as a Special choice are capped at three units.

It's a hard life.

Your battles are too small ;-)

[Phil Rossiter]

True, I didn't actually count the points there.

The "Eternity King" costs a bazillion don't he?